[ANSTHRLD] badge help

Teceangl tierna at agora.rdrop.com
Fri Feb 15 18:05:45 PST 2002


> > The default for a mountain is issuant from base.  So it can be said to
> > be forced into that position.
>
> default positioning and forced positioning are to separate things to me.
> Default is just where it is most commonly seen in period. Forced would
> be a move to clear color on color or metal on metal restrictions.

A chief is forced to be in chief.  Flaunches are forced to be in pairs and
to dexter and sinister both.

> This I find to be in conflict with the quote you stated below:
>
> > From the September 2001 LoAR:
> >
> >   Charles le Grey. Name and device. Argent, a tierce gules.
> >
> >   This device is in conflict with the Barony of the Eldern Hills,
> >   Argent, a mountain of three peaks issuant from base gules. The SCA
> >   currently considers a mountain to be a variant of a mount, which is
> >   a peripheral ordinary, as per the following precedents:
> >
> >   Mountains, as variants of mounts, should be emblazoned to occupy no
> >   more than the lower portion of the field. (Barony of Blackstone
> >   Mountain, September, 1993, pg. 10)
>
> If a mount or Mountain is to only take up the bottom half of the field,
> then moving it half way up the field should provide a change in position
> CD. The problem lies in a mountain being defined as a peripheral
> ordinary which is not how it is being used in the proposed submission.
>
> > At *this* time, a mountain cannot be a primary charge.
>
> Hmmmm..... I wonder if a test case should be put through to get this
> changed....

That was the test case.  It failed.  The mountain is a peripheral charge
and conflicts with a tierce, chief, or canton with only one CD for type
and none for placement on the field.  This was a Laurel ruling which was
*very* heavily researched by Laurel staff.

> > However, in the proposal neither is it a peripheral, so you cannot get
> >more than a CD for changes to the field.  Hence, it probably conflicts
> >with only the difference to the field for a single CD.
>
> OK, lost me on this one. If it is not a peripheral charge (which it is
> currently defined to be) then removal of the peripheral charge in one
> and the addition of and non-forced positioning of the other should
> provide sufficient CD's. Unfortuantely, I believe the problem is
> revolving around the definition of a mount or mountain.

You're not removing and adding, you're simply changing position.

> Are there no peripheral ordinaries used as sub-ordinaries in period?

The term "sub-ordinary" is defined completely differently by every
heraldic writer who uses it, and the term was invented in the Victorian
age and isn't period.  So the question slips through the cracks of
usefulness in this discussion.

- Teceangl
--
     The sun, moon, and stars are for the birds -- a big naught.
                    Flora rose cross and ate flour.



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