Bob Dewart gilli at seacove.net
Sat Mar 9 11:11:10 PST 2002

Your example of a group using a non registered name is a bad one.  Unless
it's changed before a group can become a full shire, etc. they must have a
registered name.  Plus those things receive allot of attention by the local
and regional folks.

In addition you are wrong on my desire to cause Francois and Mari to get
abused.  I have no personal feels either way for them.  I do have a growing
desire to see this award passed.

We aren't talking about a little booboo that happened yesterday.  This has
been going on for twelve years!!  Many of those 239 came from Middleford.

If there are other such long standing "mistakes" out there, I'd have no
problem with "grandfathering" them with a notation "not to be used as a
bases for passing future submissions."  A little more Creative and a little
less Compulsive would be a good thing here, I think.

You weren't at Round Table.  The whole room told Francois to pass it.  This
isn't some boohoos for somebody's badge not passing.  It's the recognition
of this Kingdom's future were talking about.

BTW, I guess it would have been better if it hadn't been submitted.  While
it say they must be passed, I didn't see mention of a time frame for action.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim McDaniel" <tmcd at jump.net>
To: <heralds at ansteorra.org>
Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] Re: +AFs-ANSTHRLD+AF0- Re: +AFs-ANSTHRLD+AF0- Stars

> On Sat, 9 Mar 2002, Bob Dewart <gilli at seacove.net> wrote:
> > So how come it took so long for the Rising Star paper work to get
> > started?
> It's true that Corpora says
>     Kingdoms may establish awards and orders conferring Awards or
>     Grants of Arms, and the Crown may award membership in such orders
>     according to the laws and customs of the kingdom. The names and
>     insignia of these awards and orders must be ratified by the Laurel
>     Sovereign of Arms.
> and
>     Non-armigerous awards and orders may be established by a kingdom,
>     principality or barony, according to the laws and customs of the
>     kingdom. The names and insignia of these awards and orders must be
>     ratified by the Laurel Sovereign of Arms.
> It's just that not many people bother to sit down with their branch's
> name, arms, armory, and awards, to bump up against an Armorial to look
> at what's registered.  (We just had a case where a branch name was
> registered with a typo back in the 1980s and they apparently just now
> noticed.)  I checked the Armorial when I became Oakenwald (Steppes),
> and found an unneeded item.  But I didn't bother as Bordure.  (I did
> notice that Meridies hadn't registered at least one grant-level award.
> I was tempted to submit it from Ansteorra and ransom it to them for a
> "peppercorn" ransom like a plate of cookies, but I realized quickly
> that the political grief and interkingdom hate would have been
> incredible.)
> Hell, how many crowns and baron/esses actually bother to ask a
> herald's opinion about whether a name or design is registerable before
> they announce it and use it?  They're the ones who are motivated to
> actually work with it and in a position to fix things before they
> become official.
> > Couldn't Laurel just make an exception and pass it so the 239
> > recipients of it wouldn't feel badly about the whole thing?
> That would be BAD on so many levels:
> - If that were done, any branch would be able to pass any award name
>   by refusing to register it, using it for years, and then saying
>   "don't hurt their feelings".  In short, it would reward
>   rule-breaking with more rule-breaking.  (I am reminded of the
>   Steeleye Span version of "Royal Forester", one of many such medieval
>   and post-period songs: a woman is raped, she goes for justice, and
>   the judgment is that she has to marry her rapist.)
> - "I've been using it for years" has been a complaint for so many
>   years by so many submitters, and I for one have no more sympathy for
>   it now than I did years ago.  -- Not that my sympathy or lack of
>   same counts at all: I make no decisions on registerable items.  As I
>   see the complexities of rulings at Laurel level, I am getting more
>   and more sympathetic to "non scripta, non est" and "them's the
>   rules, period".  Anything else leads to one Hell of a lot of
>   headaches and submitters upset at differential treatment.
> - You're suggesting that an Ansteorran Laurel Principal King of Arms
>   and an Ansteorran Pelican Queen of Arms make a special exception
>   just for Ansteorra?!  Man, you must really want to see Francois and
>   Mari get abused!  No.  It's fairly prudent when a Society officer
>   from kingdom X has to be more hands-off than normal for issues from
>   kingdom X, for fear of being thought to play favorites or to use his
>   external political power to affect internal politics.  Da'ud Laurel
>   had to let several situations in Ansteorra fester because he felt he
>   dasn't intervene.
> Daniel de Lincolia

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