[ANSTHRLD] Notes on August 2002 ILoI

[doug bell]

Notes on problem items in August 2002 ILoI

Magnus von Lubeck

2) Constance Langtrewe (Bonwicke)
[Device] The leaf with a brown stem is unblazonable.  A leaf proper is vert.
  The flowers are purpure barbed vert, seeded Or and look like roses.  We
need a specific flower to be able to blazon it.  If we go way out on a limb
(or a petal) then it would be "Or, a leaf vert between three roses purpure,
barbed and seeded proper."  This would require getting rid of the brown
stem.
[March 1998 LoAR R-MERIDIES] "Thorvald Ingvarsson. Badge. (Fieldless) A
brown oak leaf bendwise sinister proper. This is an unwarranted extension of
the concept of "brown [charges] proper".  This usage applies to charges
which, in their natural state, would reasonably be assumed to be brown.
These include objects made of leather or wood. Most animals are included as
well, unless there is some obvious other natural coloration. The question is
not whether the charge could reasonably be found in nature as brown, nor if
it is the only possible color. The criterion is whether, absent any further
information, brown is the obvious choice. This is consistent with period
heraldry's use of brown animals and inanimate objects. The word "brown" is
often included in the blazon, but this is merely for clarity's sake and does
not seem to be a feature of period blazons. A good test is if it is actually
necessary for an accurate reproduction.  A leaf does not fall within this
criterion. A reader would most likely interpret "a leaf proper" as being
green. The inclusion of "brown" in the blazon is necessary for the emblazon.
In the absence of any specific documentation of brown leaves in period
heraldry, this must be returned. "

3) Darius of the Bells (Elfsea)
[Badge] As with all simple and elegant armory this has a conflict: Walter de
Witte July 1989 "Sable, a compass rose Or."  There is no CD for a compass
star vs. a mullet of four points and no difference for a compass rose vs. a
compass star within an annulet.
[Artemisia da Quieto d’Arzenta, April 2001 LoAR R-Lochac] "By prior
precedent there is not a CD between a compass star and a mullet of four
points, nor is there a CD between a compass star and a riven star..."
[William Killian, January 2001 R-Ansteorra] "[Azure, in canton a mullet of
four points, a bordure argent] Conflict with Ariel of Alon, Azure, two
compass stars argent and a sword argent, hilted gules, winged Or, a bordure
argent. As neither a compass star nor a mullet of four points are period
charges, and they differ only by the addition of the lesser points, there is
not a CD between a mullet of four points and a compass star. There is also
not a CD for arrangement on the field, because William's mullet occupies the
same space as one of Ariel's compass stars. Therefore there is only a single
CD for changing the number of primary charges."
[Stephen macThomas, June 2000 LoAR R-Ansteorra] "There is no difference
given between a compass rose and a compass star within an annulet."

9) Ginevra Rodney (Loch Solleir)
[Badge] Note - this shows why dealing with SCA floral heraldry reminds me of
Little Shop of Horrors.

Vs. Alyanora of Vinca February 1975: "Argent, a periwinkle [Vinca minor]
proper."
[November 1997 LoAR R-MERIDIES] "Kiera nic an Bhaird. (Fieldless) A borage
flower purpure, barbed vert, seeded argent.  The badge conflicts with
Alyanore of Vinca (SCA) Argent, a periwinkle (vinca minor) proper. A
periwinkle proper is very close in color both to purple and to blue; there
is not a CD between it and either purpure or azure."
A search at Ohio state
http://www.hcs.ohio-state.edu/hcs/TMI/Plantlist/vi_minor.html revealed that
[Vinca minor] is a five petaled purple flower.  There should be a CD for
fieldless and for the type of flower (5 vs 3 petals).  A visual check should
still be requested.
For reference this is the ruling on ginger flowers for her device.
[Ginevra Rodney, September 2000 LoAR A-Ansteorra] "Argent ermined vert, a
wild ginger flower purpure.  This is clear of Seamus a' Chnuic Ghuirm,
Argent, a trillium inverted purpure barbed vert and seeded Or, as there is
one CD for the field, and a second for the inversion of the flower. Three
petaled flowers have a distinct orientation, unlike flowers with more
petals. This is also clear of Elspeth of Harilow, A heartsease proper [Viola
tricolor], as there is one CD for the field and one for type of flower. As
there is no evidence of heartseases being used in period, we must judge
difference on visual grounds. A heartsease has both a different number and
of petals and the petals are a different shape, therefore it is sufficiently
different from a trillium."

10) Godfrey Gauche (Bonwicke)
[Device] "Or, three leaves vert."  Conflict with Tamara iz Kiev July 1974:
"Argent, three birch leaves vert."  There is a CD for the field but
Godfrey's leaves are identical to birch leaves.

12) Hurrem bint Rashid (Adlersruhe)
[Device] Name registered October 2001.  The rose is barely overall, lying
mostly on the swords instead of the field.  This is returnable by long
standing ruling.
[Tanglwyst de Holloway, September 1999 R-Artemisia] "The lion is not charged
on the maple leaf but is barely overall. Barely overall charges have been
ruled unacceptable for a long time and for fieldless badges overall charges
must have very little overlap with the charge it surmounts. Either way we
must return this badge."
[Muirgheal inghean Raghailligh mhic Seachnasaigh August 2001 LoAR
R-Atenveldt] "[a fret surmounted by a badger statant] An overall charge
should lie mostly on the field. Here the badger lies almost entirely on the
fret. This is not stylistically acceptable by long standing precedent."

13) James Mac Murchadha (Bonwicke)
[Name] The name is a mix of English and Gaelic.  It is registerable with one
weirdness but we don't know whether the submitter wants Scots or Gaelic.  If
the submitter is interested in Scots the name would be James MacMurdoch or
MacMurphy.  Gaelic would be Séamus mac Murchadha.

17) Mihrimah bint Hurrem (Adlersruhe)
[Name] Arabic and Turkish don't use metronymics so this must be returned. I
would recommend Da'uds Arabic Name articles at St. Gabriels.
['Inan Nihlah, February 2000 LoAR R-Atenveldt] "Both 'Inan and Nihlah are
Arabic feminine given names, but there is no evidence that Arabic names were
formed of two given names. As they did not use metronymics we could not fix
this by making the second name a metronymic."

21) Rosalia O Brogan (Elfsea)
[Badge] Blazon "Sable, semy of butterflies Or." Conflict with Kelvin
Alastair MacGowan registered at some point: "Sable, a butterfly fimbriated
and lined Or." There is a CD for the number of butterflies. Conflict with
Eric Brehattin June 1992: "Gules, semy of butterflies Or."  There is a CD
for the field.

23) Toshiro Koi (Bonwicke)
[Name] Toshiro - This is a given name which comes after the family surname
in Japanese.  Toshi and rou are kanji listed in Solveig Throndardottír's
Name Construction in Medieval Japan as used to construct period names.
Koi - O'Neill has modern names in it as well.  Koi is not in Solveig's book
and that has me concerned it is modern in light of a recent ruling.
[December 2001 LoAR EALDORMERE-R] "Yoshikishi Hashiro. Name. The submitted
elements were documented from Patrick Geoffrey O'Neill's Japanese Names. No
documentation was provided and none was found that either element would have
been used in a period name. Also, this source listed Yoshikichi not
Yoshikishi. Neither of these elements are listed in Solveig Throndardottír's
Name Construction in Medieval Japan. Lacking evidence that these elements we
used in period, they are not registerable.  Additionally, this submission
has the given name (nanori) first and the surname second. In Japanese, the
surname comes before the given name."
[Device] Blazon as "Sable, three koi naiant in annulo argent."  Carp were
found in Japan since 200 A.D. and have been registered before in the SCA:
Shimazu Kinuko Ayame March 1999: "Argent, a bend wavy between two carp
urinant azure."  I can find no reference to how long Koi - the type of carp
- have been in Japan.  The name may not be period even though the carp is
ancient in Japan.
Conflict with Onóra inghean mhic Catháin August 2000: "Sable, three fish
naiant in annulo Or."  There is one CD for change of tincture of the fish
but none for type.
[Agilwulf the Loud, August 1995 LoAR R-ANSTEORRA] "[a shark vs a catfish]
We have not generally granted a difference between types of natural fish."
[Yrsa kistill Gunnarsdóttir May 1996 LoAR R-TRIMARIS] "[a fish vs a
swordfish] There is [no difference] for the type between a generic fish and
a swordfish."

24) William MacEwan (Bonwicke)
[Name] Sound conflict with William MacKeown registered January 1985.
[Device] The engrailing should be fewer in number and drawn larger.  This is
grounds for return.
[Derdriu de Duglas, October 2001 R-Trimaris] "[a base engrailed] The
engrailing is too small and shallow to be acceptable. There are ten cups in
the engrailing, which would be a fairly large number on a fess.  Here the
width across the base is much smaller than the width of a fess."
[Eirik Ising Steingrim September 1992 LoAR R-ANSTEORRA" [A bend engrailed,
with about 20 points on each side] Medievally, complex lines of division
were drawn boldly: a medieval bend engrailed would have about one-half or
one-third the number of engrails as the bend drawn here, and the engrails
would be correspondingly larger. This must be returned for non-period
emblazonry."

25) Winther der Trüwe (Adlersruhe)
[Device] Conflict with Jocelyn Crokehorn August 1981: "Paly argent and Or,
in bend three fleurs-de-lys palewise sable."  Only 1 CD for the field
changes.



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