[ANSTHRLD] Re: Noirjean is feminine" Mais non!; was re:Heralds Digest, Vol 2, Issue 18

Pafra & Scott scplc at i-55.com
Thu Jul 10 16:04:57 PDT 2003


I believe that someone may have misread the French which gives as examples
of compounds of "noir" with a baptismal name, Noirabel, Noirclair, --cle`re,
Noirclaude, Noirjean (pp. 731-732, Morlet, DENF.  Of the above, only
Noircle`re is most probably a feminine name.  Claude is not mentioned as a
feminine given name in Morlet although the popular form of Claude was Claud,
showing how the feminine form could have arisen through a popular belief
that the more learned form Claude was actually the feminine of the popular
Claud.
Colm
----- Original Message -----
From: <heralds-request at ansteorra.org>
To: <heralds at ansteorra.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 5:22 PM
Subject: Heralds Digest, Vol 2, Issue 18


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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Constructed matronimic  (Maridonna)
>    2. Re: Constructed matronimic  (Sara L Friedemann)
>    3. Re: Re: Re: [ANSTHRLD] conflict check - two goblets, bordure
>       (lymadelina at earthlink.net)
>    4. Re: conflict check - two goblets, bordure  (Sara L Friedemann)
>    5. Re: Re: Re: [ANSTHRLD] conflict check - two goblets, bordure
>       (Gerita)
>    6. Re: Re: Re: [ANSTHRLD] conflict check - two goblets, bordure
>       (tmcd at panix.com)
>    7. Re: conflict check - two goblets, bordure (tmcd at panix.com)
>    8. Coat of arms question... (Little Dancer)
>    9. RE: Coat of arms question... (Herndon, Darin)
>   10. Re: Coat of arms question... (ravenrux at cox.net)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 12:02:33 -0500
> From: "Maridonna" <maridonna at worldnet.att.net>
> Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] Constructed matronimic
> To: "Heralds List,Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc."
> <heralds at ansteorra.org>
> Message-ID: <000801c34705$1533f100$08dd560c at DD>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> > Quoth "Maridonna":
> > > French. Dauzat lists <Noirjean> and <Noirclaude> and then constructed
> >
> > As feminine names?  Wow.  I'm surprised, as the feminine of <Jean>
> > was usually <Jeanne> and while <Claude> was used as a feminine name,
> > it was more commonly a masculine name.
> >
> > > <Noir(r)ose>.
>
> No, not as feminine names.  I'm sure those are masculine, but I was asking
> because the constructed name would be feminine.
> >
> > Do you have evidence for <Rose> as a French feminine or masculine
> > name?
>
> My mistake; not Rose, but Rosa found in an Academy unpublished article.
I'm
> not sure how it would be spelled.
> --
> Andrea / Maridonna
>
> Why buy while they die? Adopt a rescue or shelter pet today.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 12:27:38 -0500
> From: Sara L Friedemann <liana at ellipsis.cx>
> Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] Constructed matronimic
> To: "Heralds List, Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA,\ Inc."
> <heralds at ansteorra.org>
> Message-ID: <20030710172738.32091.qmail at charybdis.ellipsis.cx>
>
> Quoth "Maridonna":
> > > As feminine names?  Wow.  I'm surprised, as the feminine of <Jean>
> > > was usually <Jeanne> and while <Claude> was used as a feminine name,
> > > it was more commonly a masculine name.
> > >
> > No, not as feminine names.  I'm sure those are masculine, but I was
asking
> > because the constructed name would be feminine.
>
> In that case, I'm not sure these examples support the construction.
>
> > > Do you have evidence for <Rose> as a French feminine or masculine
> > > name?
> >
> > My mistake; not Rose, but Rosa found in an Academy unpublished article.
I'm
>
> Maridonna, can you email me privately - Which article?  By whom?
>
> -Aryanhwy
>
>
>
> --
> vita sine literis mors est
> http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 10:48:54 -0500 (CDT)
> From: lymadelina at earthlink.net
> Subject: Re: Re: Re: [ANSTHRLD] conflict check - two goblets, bordure
> To: "Heralds List, Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc."
> <heralds at ansteorra.org>
> Message-ID:
> <2114420.1057859335382.JavaMail.nobody at skeeter.psp.pas.earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> >"In fess", then.  I should have mentioned the general >principle: if you
have multiple charges on the field or on >another charge, you should
describe their relative placement >and orientations.  (Depending on the
number and the charges, >there may be default positions and postures so you
don't have >to state them.  But knowing what you can do requires research,
>it's not *wrong* to be more explicit, and if Laurel wants to >remove
defaults from your blazon, they can always do so.)
>
> Thank you for this explanation.  Is there, by any chance, a list of the
charges or types of charges which do have default positions?
>
> >It helps to summarize the full design briefly rather than >repeat an
entire message we've already seen verbatim:
>
> Pray forgive me.  I'm usually very good about snipping the extraneous.
One of my pet peeves is replies which have numerous "x mailing list blah
blah blah" footers.
>
> I'd go with:
>
>     Argent, in fess two goblets within a bordure vert semy-de-lis argent.
>
> >By the way, there are at least three ways to depict semy of >whatever in
period art,
>
> Which is the more common method?  My modern eye prefers none cut off, but
I wonder if the "wallpaper" style is more period.
>
> >Having two charges (other than long and skinny ones "in pile") >was not
common in period
>
> I'd really prefer two to any other number, even if it is unusual.
>
> >The Pict Dict says that in period armory, cups were always (as >I recall)
covered cups (a hemispherical dome on top).  If you >are willing to do that,
you'd be REALLY unique in the SCA and >you'd be fitting period style.
>
> I'm not adverse to covered cups, though I think uncovered seems more
friendly, in a way, which is a subliminal message, in a way - a cup for me
and a cup for you, more so than the idea of a two-fisted drinker.  Do you
think covered would seem more like a chalice, or imply a religious overtone?
>
> >HOWEVER, note that these are period style notes only.  The >original
design is quite clearly registerable, unless there's a >conflict.  I just
mention these in case you want to consider >your own opinions on SCA
registerable style versus common >period style.
>
> >Daniel de Lincolia
>
> I like the idea of the design being very unique - thank you for the
information, and on how to make it more period.  So now I'm back to conflict
checking.  I'll keep you posted.
>
> Regards,
> Madelina de Lindesay
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 12:54:05 -0500
> From: Sara L Friedemann <liana at ellipsis.cx>
> Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] conflict check - two goblets, bordure
> To: "Heralds List, Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA,\ Inc."
> <heralds at ansteorra.org>
> Message-ID: <20030710175405.32557.qmail at charybdis.ellipsis.cx>
>
> Quoth lymadelina at earthlink.net:
> > Thank you for this explanation.  Is there, by any chance, a list of the
charg
> > es or types of charges which do have default positions?
>
> Indeed there is:
>
> Conventional S.C.A. Default Postures
> http://www.sca.org/heraldry/coagloss.html#table4
>
> -Aryanhwy
>
>
>
>
> --
> vita sine literis mors est
> http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 12:58:49 -0500
> From: "Gerita" <hpockets at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: Re: Re: [ANSTHRLD] conflict check - two goblets, bordure
> To: "Heralds List, Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA,Inc."
> <heralds at ansteorra.org>
> Message-ID: <0f0701c3470c$eacc8f00$e123f10c at user600kcg3iru>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Huge question:
> My Beloved has a birthday coming up.  Everyone's talking about the Pict
> Dict.  What's it, is it a good reference (as it seems to be) and where can
i
> get <ahem> them one as a gift??
>
> Not signing, cuz 'they' read this too.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 14:22:05 -0400 (EDT)
> From: <tmcd at panix.com>
> Subject: Re: Re: Re: [ANSTHRLD] conflict check - two goblets, bordure
> To: heralds at ansteorra.org
> Message-ID: <200307101822.h6AIM5613340 at panix1.panix.com>
>
> lymadelina at earthlink.net wrote:
> >>By the way, there are at least three ways to depict semy of
> >>whatever in period art,
> >
> > Which is the more common method?
>
> Um, I don't know.
>
> As for how to find default postures: the table in the CoA Glossary of
> Terms is the first place to look, but the Pict Dict should have other
> defaults (I suspect; I don't have one to hand to check).  Since the
> Pict Dict hasn't been updated in years and the CoA Glossary of Terms
> is about to be updated, I would check the Glossary first.  Be a little
> wary of real-world sources, because there are a few charges that have
> a different default in the SCA.
>
> Daniel de Lincolia
> --
> Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com; tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work address
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 14:27:16 -0400 (EDT)
> From: <tmcd at panix.com>
> Subject: [ANSTHRLD] Re: conflict check - two goblets, bordure
> To: heralds at ansteorra.org
> Message-ID: <200307101827.h6AIRG515550 at panix1.panix.com>
>
> I should have explained "Pict Dict" in my last note.  Free Trumpet
> Press West is the publishing arm of the SCA College of Arms.
> (Presently.  There are plans afoot to make the SCA Stock Clerk do it.)
> They have a Web page at <http://www.sca.org/heraldry/ftpw/>, and can
> otherwise be contacted at
>
> SCA Inc.--Free Trumpet Press West
> 820 E. Monroe St
> Bloomington, IL 61701
> USA
> klconlin at ilstu.edu
>
> _A Pictorial Dictionary of Heraldry_, 2nd Edition, by Bruce
> Draconarius of Mistholme and Akagawa Yoshio, is an invaluable resource
> for SCA armorists.  They showed a picture of every charge that had
> been registered in the SCA to that time, gave a period example or two,
> explained what it is, gave default postures or tinctures, showed
> variants, and listed other useful information.  It's $15.  Any SCA
> consulting or branch herald should have easy access to a copy.
>
> Daniel "'the sheep is a placid, yea, stupid, beast'" de Lincolia
> --
> Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com; tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work address
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 14:13:21 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Little Dancer <born2bonstage at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [ANSTHRLD] Coat of arms question...
> To: heralds at ansteorra.org
> Message-ID: <20030710211321.8830.qmail at web40809.mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Sorry here comes another newbie question...
> When passing a device are you allowed to use supports, motto scrolls,
mantels, wreaths, and crests etc... or is it only the shield device?
>
> The Gyspy Brenna O'dempsy
> (Or whatever Brenna will change into)
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 16:44:14 -0500
> From: "Herndon, Darin" <DHerndon at bswintl.com>
> Subject: RE: [ANSTHRLD] Coat of arms question...
> To: "Heralds List, Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA,Inc."
> <heralds at ansteorra.org>
> Message-ID:
> <ABE2678003CC51479045DB61E8377ABDD7BAB2 at bswexc.bswintl.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> The SCA, Inc. College of Arms only registers the shield device and
> doesn't touch the rest of the stuff.  Ansteorra on the other hand has
> created an in-kingdom only process for the registration of
> "Achievements" (the extra stuff you are describing).  The Ansteorran
> system allows registration of certain elements based on your rank in the
> society.
>
>
>
> For more info, see http://www.ansteorra.org/heraldry/achievements/
>
>
>
> Etienne
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Little Dancer [mailto:born2bonstage at yahoo.com]
> Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 4:13 PM
> To: heralds at ansteorra.org
> Subject: [ANSTHRLD] Coat of arms question...
>
>
>
> Sorry here comes another newbie question...
>
> When passing a device are you allowed to use supports, motto scrolls,
> mantels, wreaths, and crests etc... or is it only the shield device?
>
>
>
> The Gyspy Brenna O'dempsy
>
> (Or whatever Brenna will change into)
>
>   _____
>
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL
> <http://pa.yahoo.com/*http:/rd.yahoo.com/evt=1207/*http:/promo.yahoo.com
> /sbc/>  - Now only $29.95 per month!
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 18:22:21 -0400
> From: <ravenrux at cox.net>
> Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] Coat of arms question...
> To: "Heralds List, Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc."
> <heralds at ansteorra.org>
> Message-ID:
> <20030710222221.GPCI26675.lakemtao07.cox.net at smtp.central.cox.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Only in Ansteorra, and they are associated with rank.  However, all
devices are registered with the SCA College of Arms.  Achievements
(supporters, crests, etc.) are registered through the Ansteorran College of
Heralds and can only be submitted after your device is passed.
>
> Masamune no Yahaki
>
> From: Little Dancer <born2bonstage at yahoo.com>
> Date: 2003/07/10 Thu PM 05:13:21 EDT
> To: heralds at ansteorra.org
> Subject: [ANSTHRLD] Coat of arms question...
>
> Sorry here comes another newbie question...
> When passing a device are you allowed to use supports, motto scrolls,
mantels, wreaths, and crests etc... or is it only the shield device?
>
> The Gyspy Brenna O'dempsy
> (Or whatever Brenna will change into)
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
> _______________________________________________
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> End of Heralds Digest, Vol 2, Issue 18
> **************************************
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