[ANSTHRLD] Conflict check.

Tim McDaniel tmcd at panix.com
Thu Jul 24 21:30:02 PDT 2003

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 ravenrux at cox.net <heralds at ansteorra.org> wrote:
> Does the blazon:
> per chevron argent and azure, two griffins segreant addorsed of the
> first in chief, a garb in base Or

We cannot say for sure.

SCA blazon does not use "of the first", "of the field", et cetera.
Instead, we repeat the tinctures.  So the first blazon is

    Per chevron argent and azure, two griffins segreant addorsed
    argent in chief, a garb in base Or.

That puts argent griffins on argent.  They are therefore invisible.
If they're outlined, they're returnable for fimbriations of something
that's too complex to fimbriate.

My guess is that you mean that the griffins are blue (which would have
been "of the second"), and I'll proceed on that assumption from here
on.  We also tend not to use "in chief ... in base", as illustrated in
the next blazon you gave, but let it be implied by the field division
or the tinctures.  The SCA blazon for this is

    Per chevron argent and azure, two griffins segreant addorsed azure
    and a garb Or.

> conflict with:
> per chevron throughout argent and azure, two griffons segreant gules
> and two quill pens in saltire argent

When you have the blazon for an existing item, it is a kindness to
give the exact existing blazon as shown in the SCA Armorial
(cut-and-pasted) and the registration details (name and date).

    Malcolm Wallace of Moray, registered December 1994,
    Per chevron throughout argent and azure, two griffins segreant
    gules and two quill pens in saltire argent.

Have you read the RfS, particularly Part X?  That's the applicable
part here.

X.1: we're not deleting or adding the primary charge group, so that
doesn't apply.

X.2 requires that the types of all primary charges be substantially
changed.  Since griffins are on both pieces of armory, that condition
does not obtain, so X.2 doesn't apply either.

X.4 is the CD-counting rule.

X.4.d.  Tincture Changes - Changing the tinctures or division of any
        group of charges placed directly on the field, including
        strewn charges or charges overall, is one clear difference.

    The new armory has two blue griffins and a gold garb.
    Malcolm's has two red griffins and white pens.
    The tinctures have all changed, so there is one CD for that.

X.4.f.  Number Changes - Significantly changing the number of charges
        in any group placed directly on the field or overall is one
        clear difference.

        One, two, and three are significantly different from any
        number, four is significantly different from six or more, and
        five is significantly different from eight or more.  Six and
        higher numbers, including semy of charges, are not
        significantly different from each other.

    The new armory has only one charge group, the primary charge
        group.  It has two griffins + one garb = three charges.
    Malcolm's has two griffins + two pens = four charges.
    Three charges is significantly different from four charges.

X.4 begins

    Significant Armorial Differences - Two pieces of armory will not
    be considered to conflict if two clear ... differences exist
    between them.

Since you have two CDs, they're clear.

As to whether "per chevron" gets a CD from "per chevron throughout", I
believe the precedent is long-standing that there is not (just like
for a chevron versus a chevron throughout).  From Jaelle's prec.,

    [Per chevron vs. per chevron throughout] Th[ere] is nothing for
    the throughoutness of the field. (Jaelle of Armida, LoAR October
    1996, p. 9) [Erich von Drachenholz, Caid returns]

Fortunately, we don't need this for a CD.

Daniel de Lincolia
Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at panix.com; work is tmcd at us.ibm.com.

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