[ANSTHRLD] House Porto - Household name and badge
edreese at m7bedlam.com
Thu May 29 21:25:40 PDT 2003
I forgot to add, that as the Renaissance occurred and progressed, the
practices of place, first level patronymic, and descriptive began to
"freeze" into "last names" like every where else in Europe.
At 07:46 PM 5/29/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>I can read Italian and Spanish. Creaky memory (I haven't done this for a
>while) says that early to mid period, people were typically one name plus
>an identifier -- a place or descriptive or parent. For example, Francesca
>Lucia d'Alberto -- or Francesca Lucia da Campagna; Francesca Lucia,
>daughter of Alberto, and Francesca Lucia from Florence. A descriptive would
>be, Francesca Lucia la bella -- the lovely, etc.
>If Francesca's rank and prestige were greater than her husband's, he would
>take her name, and her influence. Their children would want to do the same
>thing, an their grandchildren, etc. -- so, you could have, Alberto della
>Bella, which often went to a plural, if he had siblings, which would either
>be Belle, if he kept it feminine, which I would think unlikely, or Belli --
>which would also change the plural of the link between the names, either 'i
>Belli' or "dei Belli". That's how you get names like "Lorenzi" or "Medici".
>If Francesca had gone to Venice, the pattern might have become "Firenzi"
>for her kids.
>The book with all of my documentation is in storage in California, so be
>kind with my feeble memory and lack of appropriate citations. :-)
>At 10:22 PM 5/29/2003 +0000, you wrote:
> >The road to getting rid of the conflict requires that you document
> >a GROUP of people pre 1600 in Italy or Portugal who might have
> >been called (blank) Porto. You can add the da if needed for
> >grammar but it doesn't affect the conflict. The group of
> >people can't be connected to the ruling nobles of the
> >Portuguese city.
> >It may be possible a group of people or a family estate could have
> >been named after a family elder such as Miguel da Porto.
> >The problem is you need the research to show examples of
> >this in Italian or Portuguese.
> >This requires sources in those languages that would name
> >groups of people. Then you need people who can
> >read Italian and Portuguese.
> >I have nothing that would be of help with this and
> >cannot read either language beyond a few words.
> >The task isn't impossible but the needed research for
> >registration isn't simple or easy by any means.
> >hope that clears up things.
> >orle herald
> >>I'm not sure that last item (the kamakazi example) is correct. Magnus
> >>earlier comment mentioned that House <person's full name> would not be
> >>passable. I would think that House <some thing> da (O)Porto would be an
> >>acceptable pattern. To offer an example, Guild of Tanners da Porto
> >>should be an acceptable format as it differentiates the Tanners of one
> >>place from another. Of course, that's an occupational guild as opposed
> >>to a household and the whole thing should be in one language or another,
> >>not Portuguese and English. But the format for guilds and households
> >>are the same for registration purposes, as I understand it.
> >>Using an inn sign format, I would think that the House of the Cup and
> >>Phoenix of Oporto would be an acceptable format. I know that there are
> >>inn signs that have involved two elements and I know that there are
> >>period Orders that involve two elements. By leaving it all in the
> >>English format (and choose your preferred form of the city name), I
> >>would think this offers a plausible attempt for registration.
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