[ANSTHRLD] Field only device
Donnchadh
donnchadh at cornelius.norman.ok.us
Tue Dec 7 21:35:34 PST 2004
Thank you,
I thought it was in there, but somehow when I looked, I went right over it.
I didn't realize that there was a field only section of the armorial though. I was just looking under PPALE:~and sable:argent.
If I understand correctly, then by adding a line treatment ( Per pale wavy argent and sable ) that should clear up the conflicts you mentioned.
I realize I'll have to do more searching to make sure that there are not any more conflicts.
Thanks to everyone for their responses.
Donnchadh
(The still learning) Sable Storm Persuivant
---------- Original Message -----------
From: tmcd at panix.com
To: heralds at ansteorra.org
Sent: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 22:55:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] Field only device
> On Mon, 6 Dec 2004, Donnchadh <donnchadh at cornelius.norman.ok.us> wrote:
> > Is there any problem with having a field only device? For
> > example: Per pale, argent and sable.
>
> Ceteris paribus, there's no problem at all with a field-only device.
> (Consider my own arms, "Per chevron embattled argent and azure".)
> The devil is in the conflicts.
>
> Use the source, Luke^W Donnchadh. If you look at the Rules for
> Submission, you'll see a subsection devoted solely to field-primary
> armory, RfS X.4.a.ii:
>
> ii. Field-Primary Armory - If neither of two pieces of armory
> being compared has charges, or if each has the same uncharged
> peripheral ordinary, they may derive greater difference from
> changes to the field. Such armory will be called
> _field-primary armory_.
>
> and then it lists differences. In brief: if it's not field-primary,
> you could get at most 1 CD for all the cumulative changes to the
> field, so without RfS X.4.a.ii, field-primary armory would always
> conflict. But this subsection allows more than one CD for independent
> changes, or complete difference (no conflict) for others:
>
> (a) Substantial Change of Partition - If two pieces of
> field-primary armory have substantially different partitions,
> they are considered sufficiently different and do not
> conflict, irrespective of any other similarities between them.
>
> "Substantial change" is for things like "per pale" versus "per fess",
> "per bend", "per saltire", "quarterly". There's a slightly confusing
> list that says (of the major lines of division) "per pale" is
> substantially different from anything but "per pale" and "paly"
> (possibly modified, like "per pale embattled" or "paly nebuly").
> Since it doesn't say "is 1 CD" but rather "do not conflict", we can
> ignore all other lines of partition.
>
> (b) Complete Change of Tincture - If the fields of two pieces of
> field-primary armory have no tinctures in common, they are
> considered completely different and do not conflict,
> irrespective of any other similarities between them.
>
> Straightforward, and a fur counts as a tincture, and a field treatment
> counts as a change of tincture too. So a conflict has to have either
> an (unmodified) argent section or an (unmodified) sable section.
> There's a precedent that says that the shared tincture doesn't have to
> be on the same section of field, that
> Per fess gules and Or.
> conflicts with
> Per fess Or and gules.
> even though every pixel on the arms changed color.
>
> (c) Other Field-Primary Armory - In any case, independent changes
> to the tincture, direction of partition lines, style of
> partition lines, or number of pieces in the partition may be
> counted separately when comparing two pieces of field-primary
> armory.
>
> There are two clear differences between "Per chevron argent
> and azure" and "Per pale nebuly argent and azure".
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> As for your specific example, "Per pale, argent and sable". Nit: by
> convention, a comma is very very rarely put between a field division
> and its tinctures. The first comma is usually after the field and
> before the primary charge, which does not exist here. So we'd blazon
> it as
> Per pale argent and sable.
>
> So if there's "per pale" or "paly" with an argent or a sable half,
> you're sunk. My first regular expression I tried was on the raw
> Armorial file was
> |Per pale argent and.*|FO|
> meaning "a blazon starting with 'Per pale argent and' and being in
> category 'field only'". I don't know whether you can do that with the
> online search.
>
> * Brandubh Ó Donnghaile|0106H|d|Per pale argent and sable
> chapé ployé counterchanged.
> Only one CD for adding a chapé ployé line of division -- bounce.
>
> * Malta|9412L|b|Per pale argent and gules.|(Important non-SCA flag)
> Only one CD for changing half the tincture of the field -- bounce.
>
> Next search:
> |Per pale argent and.*|FO|
> revealed
>
> * Ædric the Grene|9801Q|d|Per pale sable and vert.
> 1 CD for changing all the tinctures, but by the precedent I
> mentioned it's not Complete Change of Tincture (sable is shared) --
> bounce.
>
> Searches using "paly" instead showed nothing. (The stereotyped
> American prisoner uniform is "Barry sable and argent", so that's
> substantial difference and no possible conflict.)
>
> The above searches covered only plain lines of division. It would not
> catch a hypothetical "Per pale raguly argent and sable". But a
> further search for "Per pale.*argent and sable.*|FO|" showed nothing
> new. I'd think more about whether I was thorough, but having found
> three conflicts already, I can stop (I could have stopped after
> Brandubh).
>
> Ceteris paribus, there's no problem at all with a field-only device.
> The devil is in the conflicts.
>
> Daniel de Lincolia
> --
> Tim McDaniel; Reply-To: tmcd at panix.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Heralds mailing list
> Heralds at ansteorra.org
> http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/heralds
------- End of Original Message -------
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.ansteorra.org/pipermail/heralds-ansteorra.org/attachments/20041207/bbf983f4/attachment-0001.htm>
More information about the Heralds
mailing list