[ANSTHRLD] Loch Soilleir

Tim McDaniel tmcd at panix.com
Sat Jan 31 16:57:18 PST 2004


On Sat, 31 Jan 2004, P R Kettling <bridgid at zamigo.net> wrote:
> Can't resist.....a Concrete name like "River Tree" won't work either.

Non-concrete names are very often doomed to failure, but that doesn't
imply the reverse, that combining two concrete elements is doomed to
succeed.

The problem with a "concrete name" like "River Tree" is, well, Laurel
said it best (1/98)

     This was an appeal of the kingdom return of the name. While the
     group has tried to document this name, they have not been able to
     provide sufficient evidence for this kind of construction.  River
     is not generally found as an element in English place-names. It's
     a French word which wasn't used in English until after the Norman
     Conquest. River is used as a descriptive word (so that we have
     River Thames, Avon River, and so on) but there are no examples of
     places which are called Thamesriver or Avonriver. River isn't the
     sort of element that was normally used to modify Old English
     treow tree. River certainly does not describe the tree itself in
     the way that words meaning grey, fair, multi-colored, long, and
     red do. It isn't a number word. It isn't a word used to designate
     a person, like words meaning bishop and churl.

     It is true that certain types of personal names were used in this
     way, but these were Old English forenames, probably the name of
     the local hundred-man or law-man of the assembly. (This is
     especially likely to be true in the case of names of hundreds.)
     Rivere could in fact be the locative surname (from a place in
     France) of a post-Conquest landholder, and such names do appear
     as affixes, as in Newton Reigny--held by William de Reigny in
     1185 --but that's a usage quite different from the one under
     consideration here. Still, it could be used to justify a name
     with the desired elements. Ekwall has Treeton in Yorkshire West
     Riding (Treton 1204). Reaney & Wilson s. n. Rivers have Gozelinus
     Riueire or Riuere in Domesday Book and Walter de la Rivere
     c. 1150. That is sufficient to justify Treton Rivere as a
     medieval English place-name if the group wishes that form. Since
     we do not form holding names for groups, the armory must be
     returned as well.

Daniel de Lincolia
-- 
Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at panix.com; work is tmcd at us.ibm.com.



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