[ANSTHRLD] Loch Soilleir
Tim McDaniel
tmcd at panix.com
Sat Jan 31 16:57:18 PST 2004
On Sat, 31 Jan 2004, P R Kettling <bridgid at zamigo.net> wrote:
> Can't resist.....a Concrete name like "River Tree" won't work either.
Non-concrete names are very often doomed to failure, but that doesn't
imply the reverse, that combining two concrete elements is doomed to
succeed.
The problem with a "concrete name" like "River Tree" is, well, Laurel
said it best (1/98)
This was an appeal of the kingdom return of the name. While the
group has tried to document this name, they have not been able to
provide sufficient evidence for this kind of construction. River
is not generally found as an element in English place-names. It's
a French word which wasn't used in English until after the Norman
Conquest. River is used as a descriptive word (so that we have
River Thames, Avon River, and so on) but there are no examples of
places which are called Thamesriver or Avonriver. River isn't the
sort of element that was normally used to modify Old English
treow tree. River certainly does not describe the tree itself in
the way that words meaning grey, fair, multi-colored, long, and
red do. It isn't a number word. It isn't a word used to designate
a person, like words meaning bishop and churl.
It is true that certain types of personal names were used in this
way, but these were Old English forenames, probably the name of
the local hundred-man or law-man of the assembly. (This is
especially likely to be true in the case of names of hundreds.)
Rivere could in fact be the locative surname (from a place in
France) of a post-Conquest landholder, and such names do appear
as affixes, as in Newton Reigny--held by William de Reigny in
1185 --but that's a usage quite different from the one under
consideration here. Still, it could be used to justify a name
with the desired elements. Ekwall has Treeton in Yorkshire West
Riding (Treton 1204). Reaney & Wilson s. n. Rivers have Gozelinus
Riueire or Riuere in Domesday Book and Walter de la Rivere
c. 1150. That is sufficient to justify Treton Rivere as a
medieval English place-name if the group wishes that form. Since
we do not form holding names for groups, the armory must be
returned as well.
Daniel de Lincolia
--
Tim McDaniel (home); Reply-To: tmcd at panix.com; work is tmcd at us.ibm.com.
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