[ANSTHRLD] device and name conflict check

tmcd at panix.com tmcd at panix.com
Tue Dec 13 20:26:10 PST 2005


On Tue, 13 Dec 2005, Hedwig von Luneborg <lochherald at gmail.com> wrote:
> *Colin Domhnall Douglas *
>     *Per saltire sable and gules, a fret between four griffins
>     segreant to sinister Or*
versus
>
>     *Per saltire sable and gules, a fret argent between two bees in
>     chief and two bees in base Or*
>
> the fret in the second being argent rather than Or is one CD and the
> bees in the second being different from the griffins in the first is
> one CD

To be more precise still, for pedagogy:

RfS X.4.d.  Tincture Changes - Changing the tinctures or division of
    any group of charges placed directly on the field, including
    strewn charges or charges overall, is one clear difference.

RfS X.4.e.  Type Changes - Significantly changing the type of any
    group of charges placed directly on the field, including strewn
    charges or charges overall, is one clear difference.

> Would the fact that the bees in the second are arranged two and two
> be a third CD from the griffins in the first which seem to be
> arranged one on each of the four sides of the fret?

Use the source^W rules, Luke.

RfS X.4.g.  Arrangement Changes - Changing the relative positions of
    charges in any group placed directly on the field or overall is
    one clear difference, provided that change is not caused by other
    changes to the design.

So it's one more CD.

> Hedwig von Lubeck was registered in the East does that conflict with
> Hedwig von Luneborg since the places in the last names are
> different?

Again, if you're unsure about a difference or a rule, you should try
checking the Rules for Submission.  You may be just as confused and
uncertain afterwards, but you may have a higher level of confusion and
uncertainty.

A name rule part number, plus 5, is the corresponding armory rule part
number.  So since armory conflict is in RfS X, name conflict is in
Part X - V = Part V. ... OK, OK, I admit I'm being weird, but you use
mnemonics that work for you, and I'll use the ones that work for me.

RfS V's is split into personal names and non-personal names.  Here's
the applicable rules.

  1.  Personal Names - Personal names must be significantly
      different from other protected personal names.

    a.  Difference of Name Phrases - Two name phrases are
        considered _significantly different_ if they differ
        significantly in sound *and* appearance.  Name phrases
        that are not significantly different are said to be
        _equivalent_.

        Variant spellings of the same word or name, no matter how
        radical, are not considered significantly different unless
        there is also a significant difference in pronunciation.
        Low German "Flaschentraeger" could be spelled
        "vlaschendreyger" in 1430, but the pronunciation was
        essentially the same, so "vlaschendreyger" and
        "Flaschentraeger" are equivalent.  Such variant spellings
        may be registered where appropriate but do not make the
        name different.  Examples and further restrictions for
        different types of name phrase are given below.

      i.  Given Names - Two given names are significantly different
          only if they differ significantly in sound *and*
          appearance. ...

      ii.  Bynames - Two bynames are significantly different if they
           look and sound significantly different.  In general the
           addition or deletion of prepositions and articles is not
           significant.  Additional restrictions apply to certain
           types of bynames as specified below.

        (a) Bynames of Relationship - ...

        (b) Locative Bynames - Two locative bynames need not refer to
            different places in order to be considered significantly
            different; they need only look and sound sufficiently
            different.

            "Der Brabanter" is equivalent to "von Brabant"; such
            bynames were interchangeable in period.  However, "de
            Flandre" is significantly different from "le Flemyng"
            because "Flandre" and "Flemyng" are significantly
            different in sound and appearance.  "York" is equivalent
            to "of York", "Muenstermann" is equivalent to "von
            Muenster", and "Undertheclyf" is equivalent to "del Clif"
            and "Cliff".  "Zum Roten Loewen" `at the Red Lion' is
            significantly different from "zum Loewen" and from "zum
            Blauen Loewen" `at the Blue Lion'.  "Lion" (from a sign
            name) is not significantly different from "de Lyon"
            because the bynames do not differ significantly in
            appearance.

    b.  Conflict of Personal Names - Two personal names conflict
        *unless* at least one of the following conditions is met:

      i.  Given Names - Two personal names do not conflict if the
          given names are significantly different. ...

      ii.  Number of Name Phrases - A personal name containing at most
           two name phrases does not conflict with any personal name
           containing a different number of name phrases. ...

      iii.  Order of Name Phrases - Two personal names that contain
            equivalent name phrases arranged in different orders do
            not conflict if the change in order significantly changes
            the meaning of the name as a whole. ...

      iv.  Change of Name Phrases - Two personal names do not conflict
           if *each* contains a name phrase that is significantly
           different from *every* name phrase in the other.

           "William Jamesson the Smith" does not conflict with
           "William Jamesson the Carter" because each of the phrases
           "the Smith" and "the Carter" appears in one name but not
           the other.  "Gilbert Fletcher the Long of Kent" conflicts
           with "Gilbert Long Fletcher" because (1) the latter name
           contains *no* phrase that is significantly different from
           *every* phrase of the former name, and (2) the change in
           order of the second and third name phrases does not
           significantly change the meaning of the name.

Whew.  Anyway, for
    Hedwig von Lubeck
versus
    Hedwig von Luneborg

Given names: no difference.
Bynames: both are locative.  Lubeck is two syllables, Luneborg is
    three.  They are spelled rather different.  So they're
    "significantly different". They also refer to different places, so
    not "interchangeable in period".

So, is there conflict?
RfS V.1.b.i: given names are not significantly different, so no help.
RfS V.1.b.ii: same number of name phrases in each name, 2.
    ("Hedwig" and "von Lubeck"
    versus
    "Hedwig" and "von Luneborg")
RfS V.1.b.iii: no help from oder of name phrases
RfS V.1.b.iv: The first has "von Lubeck" that the second doesn't,
    and the second had "von Luneborg" that the first doesn't.
    That's what clears them of conflict.

Dannet de Lyncoln
-- 
"Me, I love the USA; I never miss an episode." -- Paul "Fruitbat" Sleigh
Tim McDaniel; Reply-To: tmcd at panix.com



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