[ANSTHRLD] Armory conflict help please

[Britt]

Teceangl here.  This probably won't go to the list, but ought to cc to you.


I have a client who would like  "Per fess argent and azure a demi
> eagle displayed issuant from the line of division and three crosses
> formy counterchanged."


What's the arrangement of the crosses?  In fess or two and one?

I looked in the ordinary for demi birds and found these but I think
> they are clear, maybe. <sigh> I just don't know.
>
> 1. (Fieldless) On a demi-eagle per pale argent and azure, a cross
> formy floretty Or.
>
> Clear beacause  of the Fieldless, the line of division is different,
> and the cross is a tertiary?


Oy.  Clear for a whole bunch of reasons.
Fieldless vs fielded - 1 CD
Tincture of bird (yours is single tincture, registered is per pale - 1 CD
Removal of tertiaries - 1 CD (registered demi-eagle is charged, yours isn't)
Addition of co-primary charges - 1 CD (in your proposal the crosses are
co-primary charges, lying entirely on the field)

2. Per fess sable and gules, on a fess argent between a two-headed
> demi-eagle displayed issuant from the fess and a tower, both Or,
> three anchors gules.
> Clear because of the difference in primary charge (fess), tinctures,
> and the tower?


X.2. - a fess is neither a demi-eagle or crosses.

Any conflict checking help would be a great help and accepted with
> much thanks.


You ever going to learn this stuff? :)

You have a group of two types of primary charges on the field - the
demi-eagle and the crosses.  Thee are no secondary or tertiary charges.

Potential conflicts would be:
1. same field, four or five crosses counterchanged in this arrangement or
two and three
2. same field, four or five demi-eagles with no crosses in this arrangement
or two and three
3. same field, a demi-eagle and three or four something else counterchanged
in this arrangement or two and three
4. same field, a demi eagle and three or four crosses of any tincture in
this arrangement, two and three, or any triangular arrangement
5. same field, an eagle and three or four crosses counterchanged
6. same field, just the demi-eagle issuant from line of division
7. same field, just the crosses in base
8. same field, any charge and three or four crosses in the same tinctures
8. any other field, four or five crosses in the proposed tinctures arranged
two and three
9. any other field, one or two demi-eagles and three crosses in the proposed
tinctures arranged two and three

By 'crosses' we mean any cross that gets no difference from crosses formy.
X2 is intrepreted here as 'no eagle or crosses, no conflict'.
The reason we think of five charges is that four and five get no number
difference.
You cannot get a CD for changing the type and/or tincture of only the
demi-eagle because this is an unusual arrangement of charges and one is less
than half of four, so checking crosses is a must.

So under birds I'll check...
Bird - Demi
Bird - Whole - 1 - Displayed - Azure (1 CD between demi and whole)

Under Bird - Demi the only fieldless anything that might possibly be a
problem is if someone conjoined three or four crosses in fess, tinctured
them argent, and then issued an azure demi-bird from them.  Too weird, but
look anyway.  Wierd happens.
Short category, easy check.  This is the only entry that should cause pause:

Caroline Morfran Sile O
Griobhtha<http://oanda.sca.org/cgi-bin/oanda_name.cgi?p=Caroline%20Morfran%20Sile%20O%20Griobhtha>
The following device associated with this name was registered in October of
1988 (via Atenveldt)<http://oanda.sca.org/cgi-bin/oanda_date.cgi?y1=1988&m1=October&y2=1988&m2=October&kA=checked>
:*
Per fess chequy sable and argent and gules, in pale a demi-eagle displayed,
wings inverted, head to sinister gules and three bezants, two and one.*

And here's why it's clear - one CD for change of tincture of the field, one
CD for change of type of most of the primary charge group (bezants to
crosses),one CD for change of tincture of all charges in the primary charge
group.

Under Bird - Whole - 1 - Displayed - Azure you'd have one CD for the
difference in birds, so only look at per fess argent and azure.  Finding
none, move on.


Crosses are the trickier category.  Stuff to check:
Cross - As charge - Sole primary -
Argent<http://oanda.sca.org/cgi-bin/oanda_desc.cgi?p=CRAC%3aargent%3asole%20primary>
Cross - As charge - Sole primary -
Azure<http://oanda.sca.org/cgi-bin/oanda_desc.cgi?p=CRAC%3aazure%3asole%20primary>
Cross - As charge - Sole primary -
Multicolor<http://oanda.sca.org/cgi-bin/oanda_desc.cgi?p=CRAC%3amulticolor%3asole%20primary>
Cross - As charge - Group primary -
Argent<http://oanda.sca.org/cgi-bin/oanda_desc.cgi?p=CRAC%3aazure%3agroup%20primary>
Cross - As charge - Group primary -
Azure<http://oanda.sca.org/cgi-bin/oanda_desc.cgi?p=CRAC%3aazure%3agroup%20primary>
Cross - As charge - Group primary -
Multicolor<http://oanda.sca.org/cgi-bin/oanda_desc.cgi?p=CRAC%3amulticolor%3asole%20primary>

Sole primary because a single per fess counterchanged cross, or all crosses,
might conflict.

Under argent we need only to check per fess argent and azure fields...
None.
Under azure we again need only check under per fess argent and azure
fields...
None.
The reason that's all we checked is because there'd otherwise be one CD for
the field and one CD for tincture of half the charge group.  Yes, one charge
can be a charge group.

Under multicolor we need check only identical fields.
None,

Group primary gets tricky because someone could conceivably have a field per
fess Or and gules, counterchanging charges azure and argent or even some
weird fieldless thing with one or two azure charges atop three or four azure
ones.

So under both Argent and Azure we check for fieldless, same field, and weird
stuff.

But remember X1 and X2 - those'll clear a good 75% of what's out there (as
in skip anything crusily with other types of primaries, as crusily are
secondaries).
One, two and three are different from all other numbers.  Unless the field
matches we can ignore those numbers of primaries.  Six and more is different
than four, so we can ignore those numbers, too.

Marmaduc de Thystelesworthe
The following device associated with this name was registered in January of
2003 (via Atlantia)<http://oanda.sca.org/cgi-bin/oanda_date.cgi?y1=2003&m1=January&y2=2003&m2=January&kQ=checked>
:*
Per bend sinister azure and sable, three crosses potent two and one argent.

*One CD for changes to the field (division/tincture) and one CD for changing
the type of crosses from potent to formy.  Nothing for number, nothing for
type involving the eagle, noting for tincture of charges (that old 'one of
four isn't half').  Tricky, huh?  But clear.

Aonghas Mathgamain MacDhomhnuill
The following device associated with this name was registered in December of
1992 (via the East)<http://oanda.sca.org/cgi-bin/oanda_date.cgi?y1=1992&m1=December&y2=1992&m2=December&kE=checked>
:*
Per bend sinister gules and sable, three Celtic crosses argent.*

Same CD count, same reasons - field and type.

Jan Starszy
The following device associated with this name was registered in April of
2003 (via the East)<http://oanda.sca.org/cgi-bin/oanda_date.cgi?y1=2003&m1=April&y2=2003&m2=April&kE=checked>
:*
Per chevron argent and gules, a ship sails unfurled sable and two crosses
formy in pale argent.*

One CD for changes to the field, one CD for change of arrangement (unless
your crosses are in pale...)

Margarette de Saint Martin-sur-Mer
The following device associated with this name was registered in July of
2001 (via Calontir)<http://oanda.sca.org/cgi-bin/oanda_date.cgi?y1=2001&m1=July&y2=2001&m2=July&kK=checked>
:*
Per chevron argent and vert, a lion passant guardant sable and three crosses
bottony one and two argent.*

Close...  One CD for changes to the field, one CD for change of type of
crosses.  Clear.

Maynard von dem Steine
The following device associated with this name was registered in February of
2000 (via AEthelmearc)<http://oanda.sca.org/cgi-bin/oanda_date.cgi?y1=2000&m1=February&y2=2000&m2=February&kH=checked>
:*
Per chevron gules and sable masoned, in chief three crosses formy one and
two argent.*

One CD for changes to the field, one CD for change of number between three
and everything else.  This was very close...  But clear.

Edward d'Orleans
The following badge associated with this name was registered in July of 1988
(via Ansteorra)<http://oanda.sca.org/cgi-bin/oanda_date.cgi?y1=1988&m1=July&y2=1988&m2=July&kX=checked>
:*
Per fess azure and Or, in chief a lion rampant argent and in base three
Maltese crosses patonce azure.*

Would you believe a CD for changes to the field and a CD for change of
tincture of half the charge group? :)

Edward d'Orleans
The following device associated with this name was registered in July of
1988 (via Ansteorra)<http://oanda.sca.org/cgi-bin/oanda_date.cgi?y1=1988&m1=July&y2=1988&m2=July&kX=checked>
:*
Per pale dovetailed azure and Or, a lion rampant argent and three Maltese
crosses patoncy, two and one, azure.*

Same count, same reasons.

Under Cross - As charge - Group primary -
Multicolor<http://oanda.sca.org/cgi-bin/oanda_desc.cgi?p=CRAC%3amulticolor%3asole%20primary>remember
that three versus four charges isw a CD and it makes the check a
LOT faster...

Melianne d'Avignon
The following device associated with this name was registered in May of 1983
(via Meridies)<http://oanda.sca.org/cgi-bin/oanda_date.cgi?y1=1983&m1=May&y2=1983&m2=May&kS=checked>
:*
Gyronny argent and azure, crusily counterchanged.*

CDs for each change of field, change of number of charges, and change of
type of crosses.

Catherine Aimée LeMoyne
The following device associated with this name was registered in January of
1985 (via the Middle)<http://oanda.sca.org/cgi-bin/oanda_date.cgi?y1=1985&m1=January&y2=1985&m2=January&kM=checked>
:*
Per fess argent and vert, four crosses of Cerdaña in cross counterchanged.*

One CD for change of tincture of half the field, one CD for change of type
of crosses.  Can't tell if it's a CD for arrangement because I don't know of
your crosses are in fess (that'd be a CD) or two and one (that wouldn't).
But it's clear without it.

Looks clear to me.  Repost to the list if you like - this email address
isn't subscribed and will probably bounce.

- Teceangl