[ANSTHRLD] Device check
tmcd at panix.com
Fri Jan 27 19:15:36 PST 2006
On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 francis.schalles at ttuhsc.edu wrote:
> Resubmitting oldies but goodies.
> This was bounced at Kingdom due to conflict AICC 10/02 item 10.
It is helpful to give all the pertinent information you have to hand.
For a resub that's related to the original item, that would be the
name, the item, and the reason for return.
It was originally on the August 2002 ILoI, so at
<http://heraldry.ansteorra.org/ICC/> it's found under August, not
10. Godfrey Gauche (Bonwicke)
New name. New device. Or, three leaves vert.
Returned for conflict with Tamara iz Kiev [July 1974]: "Argent,
three birch leaves vert." [Magnus wrote, "There is a CD for the
field but Godfrey's leaves are identical to birch leaves."]
> New pattern, added Sable bordure:
> Or, three leaves vert within a bordure Sable
> Field of Or, black bordure around the outside, three green leaves
> inside of the bordure.
In an SCA blazon, we capitalize
- the word "Or"
- any proper nouns: "a Bowen knot", "cross of Jerusalem"
- "(Fieldless)" or "(Tinctureless)".
- the first word of the blazon proper (technically, "(Fieldless)" or
"(Tinctureless)" are not part of the blazon)
and nothing else.
What sort of leaves? In commentary before the previous return, Da'ud
What type of leaves are these? They are nothing particularly like
the default SCA (usually an aspen) or heraldic (usually an oak)
Da'ud appears to be in error: aspen leaves are broad (rather like a
spade on a playing card), but the Pic Dic says that generic leaves are
narrower: no serrated edges, oval, with pointed tips, like
The previous depiction is at
<http://heraldry.ansteorra.org/ILoI/iloi200208.pdf>: so these were
leaves with curls at the tips.
Josquin du Bois Vert (7503), Or, a dogwood blossom [Cornus
florida] upon a whorl of three of its leaves, proper.
Looking at Josquin's device form: the "whorl" is three leaves in pall
one and two, so one CD for arrangement and one CD for the bordure --
Hollen of Kestrelmere (8312S) Or, a holly sprig of three leaves in
pall vert and three berries conjoined at the center, one and two,
gules, within a bordure pean.
One CD for holly versus normal leaf, one CD for arrangement, one CD
for tincture of the bordure.
Wulf Beornsson (8902X) Or, a sprig of three poison ivy leaves
inverted vert within a bordure sable.
The leaves in Wulf's are arranged
so I think there is likely a CD for that, but I'm not 100% sure. But
the stem is tiny, so there's no possibility of a CD for that bit.
There's this precedent from Francois's regular tenure:
[Three linden leaves conjoined in pall inverted] Conflict with
David the Ironlivered, Azure, a sprig of three poison oak leaves
sable, veined and fimbriated argent. There is one CD for
fieldlessness. The sprig in David's device consists of three
oval-shaped leaflets, one to chief, one to dexter and one to
sinister, with a slip issuant to base. ...
There might be a CD for the type difference between an oval-shaped
leaf and a card-pique shaped linden leaf when the leaves are used
as single charges. However, the conjoining of the leaves into
near-identical sprigs diminishes the visual difference too much
for there to be a type CD given between them. [Emelyne le Tresor,
In Wulf's case, the leaves are more irregular: asymmetric, with
noticable notches and some serrations. I would not like to bet money
(either for conflict or no) on the comparison between Godfrey and
Maybe clear of
Caerthe, Barony of (9210O) Or, a triskelion of aspen leaves
conjoined at the stems vert within a bordure embattled sable.
1 clear CD for type for the bordure. Maybe one CD for orientation
of the leaves ... if it weren't for the fact that aspen leaves are not
that far from circular. Again, it's iffy.
West, Kingdom of the (8905W) Or, three acorns in pall, caps to
center, between three oak leaves in pall inverted, all within a
bordure vert. (For the Pages School)
3 CDs from
Yoshikuri Nagayori (0407m) Argent, three maple leaves in pall
stems outward within a bordure sable.
(field, orientation, type)
At this point, I'd tell such a submitter, "I'm sorry, but I can't tell
whether it will pass or be returned, and it would take about 11 months
to find out for sure. Is there any other design that would make you
just as happy as this one?"
Ddaned dde Lyngoln
"Me, I love the USA; I never miss an episode." -- Paul "Fruitbat" Sleigh
Tim McDaniel; Reply-To: tmcd at panix.com
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