[ANSTHRLD] CC verification requested - cinquefoils (was: Re: Helpwith conflict check)

Sat Apr 7 10:54:20 PDT 2007

I am wanting the six cinquefoils  in 3, 2, 1 formation.  This is the device 
Iwould like, so I am hoping she is correct and that is seems clear.

Thank you for your help!!

Elspeth

>From: Britt <tierna.britt at gmail.com>
>Reply-To: "Heralds List, Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA,  Inc." 
><heralds at lists.ansteorra.org>
>To: "Heralds List, Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA,  Inc." 
><heralds at lists.ansteorra.org>
>Subject: [ANSTHRLD] CC verification requested - cinquefoils (was: Re: 
>Helpwith conflict check)
>Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 17:12:48 -0700
>
> > per bend invected (correct term??), with top half purple, bottom gold 
>with a
> > cinquefoil on each side opposite color. (yes, I know there are more
> > technical terms for this, but my brain is fried)
>
>Invected has the pointy bits pointing down. Engrailed has them pointing up.
>
>      [Per bend sinister engrailed] In SCA heraldry, a field division
>engrailed has the little "cups"
>      pointing towards the more honorable portion of the field. Thus,
>per fess engrailed, or per bend
>      engrailed, has the tops of the "cups" (the points between the
>"cups") pointing to chief, and the
>      bottom of the "cups" pointing towards base. This is the opposite
>of at least some real world
>      practice, but has consistently been the case in the SCA.
>Therefore, as the cups in this
>      engrailed field division point towards dexter chief, this blazon
>is consistent with SCA
>      practice. [Oswald von Ebersberg, 08/01, A-Drachenwald]
>
>Per bend sinister invected purpure and Or, two cinquefoils counterchanged.
>
>Very pretty.
>
>A cinquefoil is a variant of a rose, so I'm checking the various foils
>and roses.
>
>Kathleen of Thorne Rose - April of 1991 (via the West): Per bend
>indented purpure and argent, two roses counterchanged, barbed vert,
>seeded of hearts counterchanged.
>
>X.4.a. gives a CD for changes to the field (direction of partition
>line, tincture of half the field, plain to complex line of division).
>X.4.d. gives a CD for changing the tincture of half the charge group
>from argent to Or.
>This is clear.
>
>Christiana Roeys - January of 2006 (via Gleann Abhann): Per bend
>sinister Or and purpure, two cinquefoils pierced counterchanged.
>
>X.4.a. has two relevant parts: "There is a clear difference for
>reversing the tinctures of a field evenly divided into two parts, per
>saltire, or quarterly, but not for reversing the tinctures of a field
>divided in any other way..." and of course the difference exists for
>changing "style of partition lines".  So that's one, but only as per
>X.4.a.i. Charged Fields  - If charges other than an uncharged
>peripheral ordinary are present, at most one clear difference may be
>counted for changes to the field.
>The other CD  depends on whether the piercing is worth a CD as a
>tertiary charge.
>
>      [(Fieldless) A cinquefoil pierced purpure] We have blazoned the
>cinquefoil as pierced
>      because we believe that it is standard SCA practice to blazon
>this detail. Piercing of
>      cinquefoils was likely due to artistic license in some portions
>of our period, and is not
>      worth difference. [Tatiana Pavlovna Sokolova, 04/03, R-Outlands]
>
>Since the tincture of the cinquefoils is forced by their placement on
>the field (or their placement is forced by the field tinctures, either
>way) you cannot gain a CD for changing the upper cinquefoil to Or and
>lower to purpure since there's no way an Or cinquefoil can lie on an
>Or section of the field and vice-versa.
>Are you perchance from the Gleann Abhann area? It could be
>coincidence, but it also could be you remembering a pleasant design
>and unconsciously duplicating it for your own choice.
>Drat.  But your sense of design is, apparently, contagious.
>
>
> > purple with six gold cinquefoils.
>
>More pretty, and frankly a better period-style design.
>
>Purpure, six cinquefoils Or.,
>
>This assumed they're arranged three, two and one.  Any other
>arrangement must be specifically blazoned.
>
>Khevron Oktavii Tikhikovich Vorotnikov - October of 2005 (via the
>West): Azure semy of cinquefoils Or.
>This conflicts with one CD for changing the field.
>HOWEVER, check out this annotation on his registration:
>
>      Khevron Oktavii Tikhikovich Vorotnikov.  Blanket permission to
>conflict with badge. Azure
>      semy of cinquefoils Or.
>
>     The submitter grants permission to conflict for anything that is
>"one countable step
>      different" (a CD) from his badge.
>
>You have that CD, you may conflict with Khevron.  Nice, huh?
>
>Micheline Elphinstone - October of 1999 (via the Middle): Azure, six
>roses, two, two and two, Or.
>Remember what I said about arrangement?
>There's a CD for changing the field.
>There's a CD by X.4.g. Arrangement Changes - Changing the relative
>positions of charges in any group placed directly on the field or
>overall is one clear difference, provided that change is not caused by
>other changes to the design.
>
>
>I'm calling for a double-check of my work, please, heralds.  I find
>this clear and want to be _sure_ it's actually clear before getting
>Elspeth's hopes up (and I totally love the design, so I'm rooting for
>the accuracy of my check).
>
>- Teceangl
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