[ANSTHRLD] Conflict Question

tmcd at panix.com tmcd at panix.com
Mon May 14 22:47:28 PDT 2007

On Tue, 15 May 2007, Brian O'hUilliam <brianoftheloch at gmail.com> wrote:
> Would a fess and a fess cotissed have a CD?

SCA precedents can answer that, when properly indexed.  Or if you can
download them as single files and search them, as I can.  From
Francois's regulation-time prec.:

    [Per bend sinister purpure and vert, a bend sinister between a
    butterfly and three bells one and two Or] This is clear of
    conflict with Yusuf Ja'baral- Timbuktuwwi, Per bend sinister
    purpure and vert, a bend sinister cotised between an elephant's
    head couped close and a decrescent with a mullet suspended between
    its horns Or. The cotises, in Yusuf's device, form a distinct
    charge group apart from the group consisting of the elephant's
    head and decrescent/mullet. "While cotises and other charges on
    the field would be considered separate charge groups on the same
    armory, they are still secondary charges and can be compared to
    other secondary charges. (LoAR 6/98 p. 17)." ...

Cotises being secondary charges, they have all the usual charge CDs
that can apply to something constrained to follow the ordinary, like
tincture, number, complexity ... and the simplest of all, a CD for
being present.

> What I am looking at is Walter of the Watch:  Azure, upon a fess
> cotised Or a tilting spear, point to sinister, vert. (July 1974)
> and the proposed arms: Azure, on a fess Or a shamrock fesswise vert.
> I should get 1 CD for the seconday charge (shamrock vs tilting
> spear),

You should download or bookmark a copy of the CoA Glossary of Terms.

    Secondary Charge Group. A group of charges on the field around the
    primary charge group.  ...

Neither the shamrock nor the tilting spear is on the field, so neither
one is secondary.

    Tertiary Charge Group. Any group of charges placed entirely on
    other charges. ...

They are tertiary charges.  Tertiaries get reduced chances for
difference.  In general, you need two independent significant changes
to get a CD, and you don't have that here (only type).  Fortunately
for you, there's RfS X.4.j.ii, which allows a substantial difference
in type (like, say, a spear versus a shamrock) in simple cases (as
defined in the rule, which apply in both cases here) to get a CD all
on its own.

So the first CD isn't because of change of type of secondary;
it's by X.4.j.ii, a _substantial_ change of type of a whole tertiary
in simple cases.

> I would need the cotissed vs uncottissed fess to get the second CD.

Daniel de Linccolne
Tim McDaniel; Reply-To: tmcd at panix.com

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