[ANSTHRLD] Help please - Conflict check for "Gyronny sable and Or, a wolf rampant holding a key azure"

Britt tierna.britt at gmail.com
Wed May 2 13:56:49 PDT 2007


> Thank you!  I will drop the case on the 'a' and get it sent to the submitter
> this evening. Just tell me what I should feed, and I will do it :)
>
> This is the colored example that I have, that at least gets the general idea
> across of what I am trying to say. The keys are a bit larger on the actual
> form. That wolf just did not seem to want to be fed, though! :/ I can give
> it another try, though, if you think that would improve it's odds of getting
> out of kingdom.

The wolf is perfectly fine, it fills the space and is obviously a
wolf.  Stop agonizing over the wolf. :) About all I'd suggest is
tilting the maintained key correctly bendwise sinister, as it's
definitely not palewise (default) and should probably be in a
blazonable orientation.

Since one of us could find any Laurel rulings on charges used as both
secondaries and the maintained charge and the only registration of a
charge used both as maintained and secondary I could find was:

Ciaran Faol Ruadh
    * The following device associated with this name was registered in
September of 1984 (via Caid) and reblazoned in May of 1986 (via Caid):
      Argent, a wolf sejant to sinister sable, maintaining in its
sinister forepaw a garden rose gules, slipped and leaved vert, between
in chief three roses in fess gules and in base two garden roses gules,
their stalks entwined vert, all within a bordure engrailed gules.
    * The following device associated with this name was registered in
May of 1986 (via Caid) and changed/released in January of 1988 (via
the West):
      Argent, a wolf sejant to sinister sable, maintaining a garden
rose gules, slipped and leaved vert, between in chief three roses in
fess gules and in base two garden roses gules, their stalks entwined
vert, all within a bordure engrailed gules.

...then this will have to go all the way to Laurel for a ruling on
whether it'll be allowed.  The keys are all the same size, so that
intrepretation of the 'sword and dagger rule' (two different sizes of
the same charge on the field not allowed) isn't going to apply, but it
 might be that having them all on the field, the same size, but
definitely not in the same charge group is a problem.

I've been looking through period examples of armory to see if it was
ever done in the real world, but at this point have found nothing.  To
get a documented style allowance would require several examples - for
regional you need fewer. With these charges on Campbell gyronny I'd
not bet on finding this in regional Scottish style.

Do be honest with the submitter.  This could be a problem. It is
probably not period style. It might be returned for having the same
charge on the field in two different charge groups. Or it might pass.
But until it's in Wreath's hands along with the collected commentary
of the College of Arms commenters and a ruling is made on the basis of
that information, no one can predict the outcome. Which means your
client will likely wait 8 months to know for certain.

These are the concerns which make this a test case:

1) This motif has not been registered in the 'modern' (post-new rules,
post-Baldwin of Erebor) period of SCA heraldry.
2) A rule exists about using the same charge in different sizes on the
field in armory, and disallows the practice.
3) No specific case attempting to use the same type of charge in both
a charge group that counts for difference (secondaries) and does not
count (maintained) has been ruled on by Laurel.

Your client will be a guinea pig. Make sure he is perfectly aware of
this fact and the potential for return because of it.  He deserves to
know.

(If it's returned in kingdom, appeal IMMEDIATELY, by the way. There is
no evidence that it can be returned without a clear Laurel ruling on
this particular design and to return on speculation at kingdom is
unacceptable since no clear grounds for return can be presented.)

- Teceangl



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