[ANSTHRLD] some comments on the April ILOI
doug bell
magnus77840 at hotmail.com
Fri May 11 05:20:58 PDT 2007
Magnus von Lubeck sends these (hopefully useful) comments on your April ILOI
1) Armand de Lacy. (Bordermarch)
[Name] <Armand> Withycombe, page 151 s.n. Herman has Armand dated 1348.
<de Lacy> Bardsley, page 462 s.n. Lacy has Walter de Laci dated 1273. F. K.
& S. Hitching, References to English Surnames in 1601 and 1602 (Clearfield
Publishing, Baltimore, Maryland, 1998) has page 46 has the desired spelling
Lacy from 1601. None of these require photocopies.
ACADEMY OF SAINT GABRIEL REPORT 2611 "The surname <de Lacey> derives
ultimately from a place name in Normandy, and was brought to England by the
Normans [7]. It appears in many forms in medieval records [1, 7, 8, 9, 10,
11]:
de Lacy 1375
de Lacy 1488
Note that the name was used both with and without the preposition
<de>. <Ellen de Lacy> is a fine name from the end of the 13th century
through the end of your period, 1500."
[7] Reaney, P. H., & R. M. Wilson, _A Dictionary of English Surnames_
(London: Routledge, 1991; Oxford University Press, 1995), s.n. Lacey.
[8] Bardsley, Charles, _A Dictionary of English and Welsh Surnames_
(Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company, 1980), s.n. Lacey.
[9] Ekwall, Eilert, _The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English
Place-names_, 4th edition (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1991),
s.n. Kingston.
[10] Mari Elspeth nic Bryan, "An Index to the 1332 Lay Subsidy Rolls for
Lincolnshire, England" (WWW: J. Mittleman, 2000).
http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/LincLSR/
[11] Lennon, Colm, and James Murray, eds., _The Dublin City Franchise
Roll, 1468-1512_ (Dublin Corporation, 1998), p.62.
[Device] Blazon as: "Per pall inverted Or, argent and sable, two yales
rampant addorsed gules and a sword argent."
2) Askell de Loucelles. (Westgate)
[Device] Blazon as: "Or, on a bull's head cabossed sable a rose argent
and a chief gules."
3) Bianca Mondragon. (Bordermarch)
[Name] <Bianca> Fourteenth Century Venetian Personal Names by Arval
Benicoeur and Talan Gwynek
http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/arval/venice14/venice14given.html#table
Tables of Given Names - Women's Names has Bianca.
<Mondragon> ACADEMY OF SAINT GABRIEL REPORT 3085 "The example you found of
<es Mondragos> is a man whose name was recorded in the 13th century as <Pons
cui es Mondragos> "Pons who is Mondrago". <Mondragos> here is a grammatical
form of a placename which is <Mondragon> in modern French [2]. As you see,
<es Mondragos> is a fragment of the full surname, and thus is not correct on
its own; but we can suggest a couple alternatives. We don't know whether
women were identified with the formula <cui es> followed by a placename, so
we can't recommend that specific form [3]; but <Mondragos> alone as a
surname is probably correct; and <de Mondrago> is probably also correct,
using the appropriate grammatical form of the placename after the
preposition. [4]"
[2] Ramons lo Montalbes, "French/Occitan Names From The XII And XIII
Century" (WWW: Academy of Saint Gabriel, 1997).
http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/ramon/occitan/
[3] We believe that the form <cui es X> suggests personal ownership of
the land X; while Provencal women may have owned land, this particular
name construction may not be appropriate for a woman.
[4] A song by the troubadour Raimbaud de Vaqueiras mentions one <En
Pons de Mondrago> 'Sir Pons of Mondrago'. While we think that the
spellings might have been modernized, the modernization appears to be
light. Raimbaut de Vaqueiras, "El so que plus m'agensa (To the most
delightful melody)" in "Troubadours" (WWW: no author, accessed 2 July
2005).
http://www.cam.org/~malcova/troubadours/raimbaut_de_vaqueiras/raimbaut_de_vaqueiras_01.php
[Device] Blazon as: "Per bend sinister sable and Or, a bend sinister
gules between a frog Or and a frog vert."
4) Caitrin de Lacy. (Bordermarch)
[Name] <Caitrin> I found no evidence to document this form of Catherine
to period. The Woulfe entry may be modern.
<de Lacy> Bardsley, page 462 s.n. Lacy has Walter de Laci dated 1273. F. K.
& S. Hitching, References to English Surnames in 1601 and 1602 (Clearfield
Publishing, Baltimore, Maryland, 1998) has page 46 has the desired spelling
Lacy from 1601. None of these require photocopies.
ACADEMY OF SAINT GABRIEL REPORT 2611 "The surname <de Lacey> derives
ultimately from a place name in Normandy, and was brought to England by the
Normans [7]. It appears in many forms in medieval records [1, 7, 8, 9, 10,
11]:
de Lacy 1375
de Lacy 1488
Note that the name was used both with and without the preposition
<de>. <Ellen de Lacy> is a fine name from the end of the 13th century
through the end of your period, 1500."
[7] Reaney, P. H., & R. M. Wilson, _A Dictionary of English Surnames_
(London: Routledge, 1991; Oxford University Press, 1995), s.n. Lacey.
[8] Bardsley, Charles, _A Dictionary of English and Welsh Surnames_
(Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company, 1980), s.n. Lacey.
[9] Ekwall, Eilert, _The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English
Place-names_, 4th edition (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1991),
s.n. Kingston.
[10] Mari Elspeth nic Bryan, "An Index to the 1332 Lay Subsidy Rolls for
Lincolnshire, England" (WWW: J. Mittleman, 2000).
http://www.s-gabriel.org/names/mari/LincLSR/
[11] Lennon, Colm, and James Murray, eds., _The Dublin City Franchise
Roll, 1468-1512_ (Dublin Corporation, 1998), p.62.
[Device] The fur is spelled erminois. I don't know if complexity of 10
is a problem with this design but the device has 3 types of charges
(grapevine, demi-sun, roundel)and 7 tinctures (erminois, ermine, vert,
purpure, brown, gules, Or).
5) Skorragarðr, Canton of. (Skorragarðr)
[Badge] Blazon as: "Purpure, a pair of wings argent."
Conflict with Matill of Windkeep October 2001: "Purpure, three sinister
wings argent." One CD for changing the number of wings.
Conflict with Jehanne du May September 2001: (Fieldless) "A vol argent
maintaining between its wingtips a mullet of eight points Or." One CD for
fieldless, but none for the maintained mullet.
6) Elisabeth de Montuert. (Bordermarch)
[Name] The byname doesn't match the spellings documented.
8) Harold Shieldbearer. (Elfsea)
[Name] <Harold> Reaney & Wilson s.n. Harold gives Harold from the
Domesday Book.
Viking Names found in the Landnámabók by Aryanhwy merch Catmael
http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/norse/landnamabok.html
Masculine Names gives Haraldr.
<Shieldbearer> Viking Bynames found in the Landnámabók by Aryanhwy merch
Catmael
http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/norse/vikbynames.html
Byname Meaning
Skjaldar- Shield-
gullberi gold-bearer
It looks like the name can be constructed in Old Norse as Haraldr
skjaldarberi and turned into Harold Shieldbearer using the documentation and
a Lingua Anglica translation.
"The byname the Fierce is a Lingua Anglica translation of the Old Norse
byname greypr." [Æsa the Fierce, 07/2003 LoAR, A-Middle]
9) Ladislaus de Brody. (Wiesenfeuer)
[Device] Name registered July of 2000 (not June). If anything, the
emflaming makes this look more like a sun. Here are a few, but certainly
not all, of the conflicts with this rather nice design:
Reinmar the Alchemist October 1997: "Sable, a sun Or between twelve keys in
annulo wards outward argent."
Ursula die Taube April 1998: "Sable, a sun in glory Or between five
crescents in annulo points outward argent."
Kingdom of Ansteorra Chronicler's Badge, November 2000: (Fieldless) "A
mullet of five greater and five lesser points distilling gouttes Or."
Macedonia December 1994: "Gules, a sun Or."
Paul of Sunriver August 1982: "Azure, a compass star Or."
[Purpure, a heart Or enflamed gules] "The enflaming of the heart, as is
often the case, is drawn as small gouttes of flame, and is a blazonable
detail that is not worth difference. Because the enflaming is considered an
artistic detail, it is acceptable to have gules enflaming on a purpure
field." [Aimée Long C{oe}ur, 12/03, A-Ansteorra]
[a sun vs. a mullet of seven points] "By current precedent there is not a
CD between a multi-pointed mullet and sun..." [Máire MacPharthláin, 02/02
R-Calontir]
11) Nikolai Vladislav. (Bordermarch)
[Name] Russian doesn't use unmarked patronymics so the grammar of the
patronymic needs to be fixed. It could be Nikolai Vladislavov or Nikolai syn
Vladislav and many, many other forms.
Paul Goldschmidt's Dictionary of Russian Names - Grammar
by Paul Goldschmidt www.sca.org/heraldry/paul/zgrammar.html
"1. If the father's given name ended in "-a" or "-ia," the basic patronymic
ending is "-in" or "-yn," respectively (with the "a" or "ia" dropping out).
Otherwise, the patronymic ended in an "-ov" or "-ev." The basic rule is that
an "o" occured after a hard consonant, while an "e" occured after a soft
consonant or in place of a vowel (i.e., with the vowel dropping out).
Sviatoslav fathers Sviatoslavov"
"2. It was also common to add the word syn (son) to the patronymic or to the
"unaltered" form of the father's given name. Usually the word syn was placed
after the patronymic (e.g., Gridia Timofeev syn Batutin [1538] [Tup]) but it
could also procede the patronymic."
12) Radei Drchevich. (Namron)
[Device] Blazon as: "Quarterly gules and argent, on a lozenge throughout
sable a mullet of four points Or." or "Sable vêtu quarterly gules and
argent,a mullet of four points Or." Vêtu is a nasty thing to blazon.
Consider Paul of Sunriver August 1982: "Azure, a compass star Or."
There is nothing for a mullet of 4 points vs a compass star. Vetu is a
field division. It looks like only 1 CD for changes to the field between
the two devices. The rulings on vêtu are rather thin. Hopefully Eleanor
Leonard doesn't come into this.
[March 2004 LoAR, R-Middle] "Isabella Claybrook. Device. Vert vêtu
ployé, a coney rampant maintaining a carrot inverted argent. Conflict with
Boniface de Tennequay, Sable, a coney rampant argent, maintaining a torch
Or. There is one CD for changing the field, but no difference for changing
the maintained charge."
[April 2003 LoAR, A-Ansteorra] "William Gordon. Name and device. Per
pale sable and Or, on a lozenge throughout a mullet of four points
counterchanged. This armory may also be blazoned as Per pale sable and Or
vêtu a mullet of four points counterchanged. It must thus be considered
versus the badge of Eleanor Leonard, (Tinctureless) A mullet of four points
distilling a goutte. Eleanor Leonard gives a blanket letter of permission to
conflict published in the Cover Letter to the January 2002 LoAR, which
summarizes the contents of the letter as For permission to conflict, the
primary charge and/or the field must use a divided tincture, a field
treatment, or a fur. Both the mullet and the field are divided in this
submission, so this armory qualifies for the permission to conflict."
[November 2002 LoAR, R-Trimaris] "Isabel Margarita de Sotomayor y Pérez
de Gerena. Device. Argent vêtu ployé quarterly sable and gules, a cat
passant guardant sable. Conflict with William the Silent, Or, a natural
panther passant guardant sable. There is only one CD for changing the
tincture of the field. There is no type difference between a cat and a
natural panther."
[Argent vêtu ployé quarterly sable and gules, a cat passant guardant
sable] This .... conflicts with Amber Lang, Vert, on a lozenge argent, a cat
sejant guardant sable. When comparing armory using a vêtu field with armory
using a lozenge, the comparison must be made in two ways: as if both pieces
of armory used a vêtu field, and as if both pieces of armory used a lozenge.
If we consider Isabel's armory as the equivalent blazon Quarterly sable and
gules, on a lozenge ployé througout argent a cat passant guardant sable,
there is one CD from Amber's armory for changing the field, but no
difference by RfS X.4.j for changing only the posture of the tertiary
charge. There is no difference between a lozenge and a lozenge ployé, nor is
there difference between a lozenge and a lozenge throughout. [Isabel
Margarita de Sotomayor y Pérez de Gerena, 11/02 LoAR, R-Trimaris]
[(Fieldless) A compass star elongated to base quarterly azure and
argent] This conflicts with Eric Blaxton: Quarterly argent, scaly sable, and
azure, a mullet of four points counterchanged azure and argent. There is one
CD for the field, but none for type between a mullet of four points and a
compass star:
[a mullet of four points elongated to base vs. a compass star] There is no
difference between a mullet of four points and a compass star per the LoAR
of January 2001: "As neither a compass star nor a mullet of four points are
period charges, and they differ only by the addition of the lesser points,
there is not a CD between a mullet of four points and a compass star." There
is also no difference for the slight artistic variant in elongating the
bottom point of a mullet. [May 2003, Ret-Atenveldt, Catherine Diana de
Chambéry]
[(Fieldless) A mullet sable] ... in conflict with ... A mullet of five
greater and five lesser points distilling goutes. As with the mullet of four
vs. a compass star (see the June 1995 LoAR, pg. 23), the lesser points of
the mullet have very little visual impact, and as mullets of greater and
lesser points are not known in period, the visual difference counts. This
reaffirms the precedent set in July 1990 (pg. 13). [May 2000, Ret-Atlantia,
Chirhart Blackstar]
[a compass star vs a mullet of four points] The overwhelming visual
similarities between a mullet of four points and a mullet of four greater
and four lesser points/compass star, both of which are non-period charges,
mandates against granting a ... CD for this relatively minor difference.
[Jun 1995, Ret-Atenveldt, Raffaelle de Mallorca]
The tincture of Eric's mullet is quarterly azure and argent, which matches
the tincture of this submission's compass star. Therefore there is no CD for
tincture, leaving just the CD for the field. [Oertha, Principality of, 05/04
LoAR, A-Trimaris]
13) Robin of Gilwell. (Steppes)
[Badge] This is a really nice badge. Unfortunately, the owl is drawn in
trian aspect and it conflicts with Gwilym ab Eifion April 1988:
"Counter-ermine, an owl displayed guardant ermine."
15) Sibyl O'Dowd. (Loch Ruadh)
[Device] Blazon as: "Quarterly sable and argent, a cross throughout
between four lozenges counterchanged."
17) Zoryna Prazan. (Mooneschadowe)
[Name] <Zoryna> Period Russian Names www.sca.org/heraldry/paul/z.html
Zoryna (m) Pats: Zorynich (David Kievlianin Zorynich). 1167.
This shows it was use by someone's father in 1167.
<Prazan> "an inhabitant of Prague" from Czech Surnames
http://members.tripod.com/~zlimpkk/Genealogy/czechsurnames.html
This web site is used by St Gabriel Academy but I am not certain this is the
form of the Czech locative. Z is the preposition often used with the
place-name.
It's a pity the submitter didn't want an entirely Russian name. One would
expect a wierdness for mixing Russian and Czech languages.
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