[ANSTHRLD] Baronial investiture ceremonies

Crandall crandalltwo-scalists at yahoo.com
Wed Jan 23 20:09:34 PST 2008


What needs to be in the ceremony. 
The Crown states that the present Landed Noble(s)
no longer have that duty/burden and name the new
Landed Noble(s). The new Landed Noble(s) express
a message of duty and fealty. The crowd may or
may not cheer. 
Everything else is gravy.   

Scroll? We don't need no scroll. 
I recall a Crown stating to Gunnora, "You are a
Laurel." This was after several people brought
suit against the Crown for not saying it earlier.

Ragnar led with an impassioned speech and Kief
did a wonderful impromptu speech as well. I wish
we could have recorded what he said, it brought
tears to my eyes. 

Crandall, Olde Phart

--- Diane Rudin <serena1570 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> --- Tim McDaniel <tmcd at panix.com> wrote:
> 
> > I got asked last night -- does Ansteorra have
> any set or prepared
> > baronial investiture ceremonies?  Is there a
> Bigge Booke of
> > Cerymonies?  I believe the answer is "no" all
> around, but I thought
> > I should be sure.
> > 
> > What needs to be in a ceremony?
> > - Reading of the charter
> > - Doing homage and swearing fealty
> 
> <picture Serena crying, tearing hair, &
> generally carrying on cranky>
> 
> ***Period ceremonies didn't include reading
> aloud documents!!***
> 
> This is not a law-court proceeding, in which it
> is required that an
> indictment be read aloud.  It's a public fealty
> ceremony, in which
> everyone present knows exactly what is going
> on, and reading a
> lengthy document aloud which most of the
> audience couldn't understand
> anyway (being as it would have been in Latin)
> would have been (and
> remains to this day) pointless.
> 
> I've read many a description at this point of
> period fealty
> ceremonies, and they don't include reading the
> lengthy, Latin,
> written contract.  Period fealty ceremonies
> (and for that matter,
> modern ones) involve a LOUD (i.e., audible to
> the crowd), short oath
> made on holy relics.  From time to time I have
> seen people produce
> what they claim are lengthy "oaths", but which
> are in fact the
> documentary contract, not the spoken oath.
> 
> A long time ago in the SCA, when awards were
> not preceded by lengthy
> recitations of the reasons the person had been
> called up, the reading
> of the "scroll" was what announced to the
> people present what was
> being given.  Nowadays, especially with
> baronial investitures and
> peerage ceremonies, but more and more with
> almost every other award,
> reading the "scroll" is *pointless*,
> anti-climactic, a real drag on
> court, boring, repetitive, etc.
> 
> Some persons have gotten it into their heads
> that if they don't read
> the "scroll" aloud, then it isn't "read into
> law."  Baloney.  All
> that is necessary is for the Crown (or their
> herald) to call up
> someone and say, "Here's a Sable Thistle of
> Ansteorra for your
> awesome leatherworking".  It's been said aloud
> in court, and that's
> what makes it legal, not the exact phraseology
> of it.  (It almost
> never happens that there is a "scroll" for a
> Lion of Ansteorra.  Who
> wants to go up to a Lion and tell him/her that
> his/her award isn't
> "real"?)
> 
> Another key thing is that period oaths were
> *audible to all present*.
>  These ceremonies were performed in public for
> a reason -- so that
> none could later deny what was sworn.  SCA
> ceremonies in which the
> oaths are muttered so that the people standing
> *right there*, much
> less the rest of those present in the hall, are
> completely and
> utterly antithetical to the purpose of making a
> public oath.
> 
> In addition, homage and fealty aren't the same
> thing.  While these
> were eventually conflated into a single
> ceremony on the Continent, in
> England the ceremonial distinction remained. 
> Meanwhile, in the SCA
> they have become hopelessly confused.  "Hey,
> let's put homage and
> fealty into a blender and hit 'puree'!"  Homage
> is a personal bond;
> fealty is a contractual arrangement.  That's
> why homage is sworn
> hands-in-hands and fealty is sworn on holy
> relics.  The only persons
> at Ansteorra's Coronation who swear true period
> fealty are the landed
> barons & baronesses, and the knights.  They are
> the only persons who
> are receiving/holding goods/services on behalf
> of the Crown of
> Ansteorra.  What everyone else does (except the
> GOofS, who in
> Ansteorra have never sworn "fealty" and never
> should) would have been
> viewed as homage.
> 
> End of rant.  We now return you to your
> regularly scheduled program.
> 
> While Master Modius has compiled a notebook of
> commonly-used
> ceremonies, it is not in any way "THE" Book of
> Ceremony, nor should
> there be one.  Ansteorra as a kingdom
> historically has been more
> focused on persona than a number of other
> kingdoms, and therefore
> ceremonies are usually tailored to the persona,
> where applicable, of
> the honoree.  If you're interested, I can also
> provide period fealty
> oaths, as opposed to one taken from the Lord of
> the Rings.  (Yes, I
> know, Tolkien based that oath on a period Saxon
> fealty oath. 
> However, it would be better to use the period
> model he used, rather
> than his interpretation of it for his invented
> history.)
> 
> --Serena
> 
> 
>      
>
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