[ANSTHRLD] Conflict check

Tue Mar 4 03:50:43 PST 2008

Thanks for the help.

Coenred
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Britt
  To: Heralds List, Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.
  Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 3:36 AM
  Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] Conflict check

  > The gauntlet extends to the edge of the sun, so I would blazon it as "(Fieldless) On a sun Or a gauntlet clenched 
throughout sable."

  Right, the gauntlet is barely overall, which is grounds for return. It
  needs to be entirely upon the sun and not touching the field at any
  point.

  >   A precedent herald needs to comment further on the following:

  On it...  :)

  >   Consider versus "Azure, upon a sun Or an eagle displayed sable." (Stefan of Seawood 01/73 D) and "Sable, a sun Or 
eclipsed sable." (Kourost Bernard of the East Woods 12/00 D).  There should be a 2nd CD for substantial change to the type of 
tertiary under RfS X2j(ii).  "...A charge is suitable for the purposes of this rule if (a) it is simple enough in outline to 
be voided, and (b) it is correctly drawn with an interior substantial enough to display easily recognizable charges."

  Nope, a sun isn't a suitable charge.  It's not an ordinary and it's
  not simple enough in outline to void. Here's the most recent precedent
  I've got compiled:
  --------------------------------
  [(Fieldless) On a compass star azure a bear statant argent.] This
  badge must be returned for multiple conflicts: with the badge of
  Lorimer MacAlpin of Garioch, Argent, on a compass star azure, a
  thistle couped argent, with two badges of Solveig Throndardottir,
  (Fieldless) On a sun azure a hammer argent and (Fieldless) A sun azure
  eclipsed argent, and with Adrienne de Champagne, Argent, on a mullet
  of six points azure, a falcon displayed argent. In each case, there is
  a CD for changing the field or for fieldlessness versus another piece
  of fieldless armory but nothing for changing the type of the primary
  charge or for changing the type only of the tertiary. Precedent notes
  that "[t]here's ...no difference between suns and multi-pointed
  mullets --- which includes compass stars" [Friedrich von Rabenstein,
  6/93, R-Caid] and that "[t]here is no type difference between the
  compass stars and the mullets of six points" [Brian Sigfridsson von
  Niedersachsen, 7/03, R-Atenveldt]. In addition, precedent states,
  "There is nothing for change of type only of tertiary charge on a sun
  or multipointed mullet, as this shape is not simple for purposes of
  RfS X.4.j.ii" [Burke Kyriell MacDonald, 2/02, R-Ansteorra]. [Gabrielle
  von Strassburg, 06/05, R-Gleann Abhann]
  ----------------------------------

  You don't need recent precedents for this ruling, however. This one's
  from Francois:

  ----------------------------------
  There is no difference for changing only the type of the tertiary
  charge on a sun under either the new or old version of RfS X.4.j.ii,
  since a sun is not a "suitable" charge under that rule. [Fionnghuala
  inghen ui Chonchobhair, 12/03, R-Drachenwald]
  ----------------------------------

  So there are your first two conflicts.

  >   Consider also versus "Vert, on a sun Or a dexter hand appaumy couped at the wrist vert." (Patrick of Innisfree 06/76 
D).  I don't know if there's a change of type between a hand and a gauntlet under RfS X2j(i), but I'm pretty sure it's not a 
substantial change of type necessary to clear it under RfS2j(ii).

  Right again, and there's no difference:

  -----------------------------------
  We give no difference between a hand and a gauntlet... (Brian Brock, 5/99 p. 14)
  -----------------------------------

  So that's your third conflict.

  This one's also a possible conflict:
  Ronan ap Morgan - October of 1995 (via Meridies): (Fieldless) On a sun
  Or, a heart per pale azure and sable.
  A literal reading of X.4.j. find that, "Changes of type, number,
  tincture, posture, or independent changes of arrangement may each
  count as one of the two changes. Generally such changes must affect
  the whole group of charges to be considered visually significant,
  since the size of these elements and their visual impact are
  considerably diminished." Which means that changing the division
  doesn't apparently count and changing the tincture of half the charge
  might not, either. This would require a Laurel ruling to clarify.  The
  guaranteed CD is for fieldless under X.4.a.iii.

  This one's a conflict:
  Seth the Seeker - September of 1984 (via Caid): Gules, on a compass
  star throughout Or a unicorn's head couped at the shoulders sable,
  armed and crined gules.
  Again one CD for fieldless under X.4.a.iii.

  And this one:
  Al-Ishtiaq Khaalid bin al-Kaazim - April of 1994 (via the Middle):
  Gules, on bezant invected, a wingless boar-headed demon statant
  affronty, facing to sinister and brandishing a sword and an axe sable.
  Another single CD under X.4.a.iii.  Nothing for maintained charges.

  And this one might be, or might not:
  Gregory Frazer MacAonghais - June of 1995 (via Caid): Per pale gules
  and azure, on a mullet of seven points inverted Or a cinquedia
  inverted, dependant from the quillions a pair of balance pans sable.
  There's a CD for fieldless under X.4.a.iii.  If the cinqueda and
  balance pans are two separate charges a second CD for type+number of
  tertiary charges might be available under X.4.j.i. however visually
  you're looking at a balance with a pointy foot, not two distinct
  charges, so I'd not bet on a second CD.

  This one is clear:
  Aodhan Ite an Fhithich - May of 1981 (via Ansteorra): Plummetty sable
  and argent, on a sun of eight rays Or a feather bendwise sinister
  sable.
  There is the CD for fieldless under X.4.a.iii. and a second CD for
  type+orientation of the tertiary since there is a meaningful long axis
  on both a feather and a gauntlet and either could be bendwise
  sinister.

  Another conflict:
  Elizabeth Siobhan of Wiltshire - August of 1983 (via Atlantia):
  Quarterly sable and vert, on a mullet of eight points Or a natural
  panther sejant erect sable.
  There's the CD for fieldless under X.4.a.iii. but there's no
  meaningful posture comparison between a wolf and a gauntlet.

  And the reason a lot of these were registered is that the rules have
  changed a bit over time. Before 1990 a whole different criteria for
  counting difference was being used and until about 1993 a compass star
  was a CD from a sun and compass stars were voidable.

  Six absolute conflicts and two probables. <sigh>  I'm sorry.

  - Teceangl
  -- 
  Heraldry is designed to be easily reproduced by anyone who sees the arms. -
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