[ANSTHRLD] Name documentation (for Sarait)

Jennifer Smith jds at randomgang.com
Thu Nov 13 17:52:46 PST 2008


Donnchadh wrote:
> That was the documentation she used for her original 
> submission, but it 
> was returned at Kingdom for "lack of documentation that this name was 
> ever used by non-legendary humans." 
> http://herald.ansteorra.org/gazette/200512AG.pdf

Ah useful, thank you!

> I'm assuming that the specific rule that was being applied was VI-2
> 
> *Names Claiming Powers.* – Names containing elements that allude to 
> powers that the submitter does not possess are considered 
> presumptuous.
> Society names may not claim divine descent, superhuman abilities, or 
> other powers that the submitter does not actually possess. 
> Such claims 
> include divine patronymics, like /Vulcanson/ ; epithets peculiarly 
> associated with divinities or superhuman beings, such as /of the 
> Valkyrie/ ; given names that were never used by humans, like 
> the names 
> of some Giants or Dwarves in Norse mythology; or descriptive epithets 
> like /Worldblaster/ .

That's probably where the Laurel precedent against registering 'legendary'
names comes from, yes.

> I have to agree with Tadhg concerning the difference between 
> legendary 
> (yet still human) and mythical / devine. I would think this 
> documentation sufficient to register Sarait.
> 
> Thoughts?

She could try it again (and if otherwise identical it would be an appeal),
but I would not place any bets on it passing at all.

Relevant precedents:

Ó Corraín & Maguire (p. 46 s.n. Cassair) gives this as the name of a holy
virgin included in the legend of Saint Kevin. No evidence has been found
that this name was used by humans in period. Names of saints are
registerable, regardless of whether they are apocryphal or not. This policy
is due to the practice in many cultures (though not in Gaelic) of naming
children for saints. (For more details, see the Cover Letter for the
September 2001 LoAR.) As Cassair was not herself a saint and the name has
not been documented as having been otherwise used in period, it falls into
the category of a legendary name and is not registerable. [Cassair Warwick,
02/02, R-Atlantia]

(repeated again in 6/03:)
The given name Broinninn was documented from Ó Corraín & Maguire (p. 38 s.n.
Broinnfind), which gives this as the name of the sister of one saint and the
mother of another. No other evidence was found that this name was used by
humans in period. As such, it falls afoul of the precedent: 

Ó Corraín & Maguire (p. 46 s.n. Cassair) gives this as the name of a holy
virgin included in the legend of Saint Kevin. No evidence has been found
that this name was used by humans in period. Names of saints are
registerable, regardless of whether they are apocryphal or not. This policy
is due to the practice in many cultures (though not in Gaelic) of naming
children for saints. (For more details, see the Cover Letter for the
September 2001 LoAR.) As Cassair was not herself a saint and the name has
not been documented as having been otherwise used in period, it falls into
the category of a legendary name and is not registerable. [Cassair Warwick,
02/02, R-Atlantia] 

Lacking evidence that Broinninn was used by humans in period, or that it was
the name of a saint (and so would be registerable under the guidelines for
registerability of saints' names), this name is not registerable. [Broinninn
nic an Ghabhann, June 2003]

About the source I abbreviate as OC&M, we have this from the 3/08 LoAR:

The documentation noted the source and page number, but provided no
information about what the source said about the names. This is particularly
important when citing names from the source used here, Ó Corráin and
Maguire, Irish Names. This source has multiple header forms, some period and
some modern, and includes legendary and explicitly modern names. Failure to
summarize sources is grounds for return. Fortunately, the commenters
provided the missing information. [Brighid inghean Chonchobhair uí Néill,
March 2008]

*Might* be worth tossing over to the Academy of Saint Gabriel (they're open
for business again) and seeing what they say nowadays, since they haven't
addressed this name since 1999.

-Emma

> ld_tadhg at sbcglobal.net wrote:
> > Greetings,
> >  
> > To the best of my knowledge, O'Corrain and Maguire is still 
> considered a valid source especially when using the 
> headword...which Sarait is (pg 161).
> >  
> > Sarait is identified as the daughter of Conn Cetchathach. 
> Given that the attribution is "semi-legendary" does not make 
> it anything approaching invalid. There is a great difference 
> between legendary such as Arthur or Gawain and 
> mythical/magical such as Puck. 
> >  
> > The Irish would have gladly reused legendary names...they 
> would not have done the same for names attibuted to 
> other-worldly beings as that would be an invitation for a 
> visit by the original name-holder. Such visits almost never 
> ended well.
> >  
> > Given its antiquity, I believe you will probably find the 
> origin of the name in the Annals of the Four Masters...if you 
> have a mind to go skating through that rather lengthy tome.
> >  
> > Never mind, here it is, Annals of the Four Masters, The Age 
> of Christ 165 (M128, pg 107)
> >  
> > "Conaire, son of Mogh Lamha, after having been eight years 
> in the sovereignty of Ireland, fell by Neimhidh, son of 
> Sruibhgheann. This Conaire had three sons, Cairbre Musc, from 
> whom the Muscraighe are called; Cairbre Baschaein, from whom 
> are the Baiscnigh, in Corca Baiscinn; and Cairbre Riadal, 
> from whom are the Dal Riada. Saraid, daughter of Conn of the 
> Hundred Battles, was the mother of these sons of Conaire, son 
> of Modh Lamha."
> >  
> > That translates to Saraid (daughter of Conn of the Hundred 
> Battles) was the wife of Conaire, and mother to Cairbre Musc, 
> Cairbre Baschaein, and Cairbre Riadal.
> >  
> > Still recommend the notation of OC&M as "Sarait" rather 
> than "Saraid"...believe the latter may be a modern 
> normalization by the translators.
> >  
> > Regards,
> > Tadhg
> > ...brick by brick
> >
> > --- On Wed, 11/12/08, Jennifer Smith <jds at randomgang.com> wrote:
> >
> > From: Jennifer Smith <jds at randomgang.com>
> > Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] Name documentation
> > To: "'Heralds List, Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.'" 
> <heralds at lists.ansteorra.org>
> > Date: Wednesday, November 12, 2008, 9:00 PM
> >
> > Duncan wrote:
> >   
> >> Does anyone have a documentation source for Sarait or a 
> >> varient (Saraid, 
> >> Saereid)?
> >>     
> >
> > Best I've found for Sarait was not very promising at all.
> > http://www.s-gabriel.org/916 cites only the undated 
> reference in OC&M, and
> > says it refers to a semi-legendary character, and probably 
> wasn't used by
> > real people.
> >
> > <Saereid Sigmundsdottir> was registered by Laurel in April 
> 2001, so I
> > went
> > to look up the documentation given at the time. According to LoI: 
> >
> > "Saereid: Swedish feminine given name found in the poetic Edda (Edda
> > Sæmundar), translated to Swedish at the Runeberg project
> > (http://www.lysator.liu.se/runeberg/eddan/) is usually a 
> good source of
> > e-text versions of Norse literature. The specific poem is
> > http://www.lysator.liu.se/runeberg/eddan/se-15.html (Kvädet om Helge
> > Hjorvardsson). The name given in Swedish is Säreid. 
> >
> > "As well, the First Lay of Helgi Hjorvarthsson
> > http://www.angelfire.com/on/wodensharrow/helgi.html is a 
> source. Therein you
> > will find this poem again, with the name of the wife as 
> S{ae}reith. This
> > translation is taken from "The Poetic Edda" which is cited as: The
> > Poetic
> > Edda Translated by Lee M. Hollander © 1962 ISBN 0-292-76499-5 LCCCN
> > 61-10045. Fifth paperback printing 1994 University of Texas 
> Press Box 7819,
> > Austin, Texas, 78713-7819. While this is still a "translated" source
> > for
> > these poems, the pages contain rather extensive notes on 
> sources, and uses a
> > non-anglicized character set for all names."
> >
> > The first two links at lysator.liu.se are still good, but 
> the one in the
> > last paragraph is gone. Anyway, it still looks likely as a 
> Swedish name.
> >
> > -Emma
> >
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