[ANSTHRLD] marshaling question.

[Star Principal Herald]

Some more details...keep in mind that before marshalling was codified by 
the College of Arms, dimidiation, impalement, and quartering were used 
oddly.  I've found evidence of a quartered marital coat that had nothing 
to do with inherited arms.

After the College of Arms (England's) standardized methods of 
marshalling, impalement  was used where the wife is not the heiress of 
her father's arms, but the husband wished to show the association to the 
wife's family (particularly if they were a notable family).  Impalement 
was not used on the battlefield however as the wife's father/brother(s) 
bore the arms and represented the family directly on the battlefield.  
(I take impalement to be a suitable display in the SCA because my wife 
is not the heiress of her father's arms.  Her arms are hers by right.  
As such, I'm associating myself with her in the display, but not 
claiming stewardship/ownership of her entitlement.)

An Escutcheon of Pretense (EOP) is displayed on a husband's arms when 
the wife is the heiress of her father's arms, however, evidence I found 
states that this display may only be used when the couple have issue (a 
child, who is heir apparent of the mother's arms).  [As discussed in an 
earlier thread, EOPs are not really SCA compatible since our wives are 
not heiresses of their arms.  They also can be confused with escutcheons 
of augmentation]

An heir apparent does not display any quarterings of the parents' arms 
during their lifetime.  Let's assume the heir apparent is a son.  If 
both parents are alive, the son displays the father's arms with a label 
(standard English heir apparent).  If the mother dies before the father, 
the son quarters the father's arms with the label with the arms of his 
mother (to which he is now the HEIR).  The father no longer displays his 
wife's arms because they belong to his son.  If the father dies before 
the mother, the son becomes the heir of his father's arms and removes 
the label.  The son does not bear his mother's arms yet in any fashion.  
Once both parents are dead, the son displays both parents arms 
quartered.  Typically it is displayed with the father's arms in the 1&4, 
but I believe that if the mother was of higher pedigree, the son may 
take her surname and switch positions.

What I think would be really cool to see in the SCA is people utilizing 
heraldic wills by quartering.  While we can't will our awards, or 
titles, we can will our devices.  If Lord John Smith wills his device to 
me, I become the heir apparent to his device.  When he dies, I become 
the heir of his device.  By the heraldic will, the device will transfer 
to me and I can accept it as a badge.  Once I do, I could display it as 
a quartering with my own device.  I don't register the marshalled arms, 
but each quarter is registered to me.  It would be a bit of an SCA-ism 
compared to historic practice, where a lot more than just the arms were 
inherited, but one I'd be willing to accept.  I think it would be a nice 
way to show tribute to the deceased, and help keep their memory alive in 
the Dream.

Alden



Alasdair MacEogan wrote:
> Donnchadh Beag mac Griogair <donnchadh at cornelius.norman.ok.us> wrote : 
>   
>>  My understanding is that the arms of the HEIRS are marshaled to include
>>  the arms of both parents, not that spouses would marshal their arms once
>>  married.  Keep in mind that your arms are you.  As you are a product of
>>  both parents, you show that by marshaling their arms (assuming you
>>  inherit from both of them).  Quartered arms would tend to indicate
>>  inheritance from four grandparents to one grandchild.
>>     
>
> Marshaling can be confusing.  Especially so as I believe different heraldic authorities behaved slightly different.  i have by no means made an exhaustive study, but here is my understanding.
>
> The husband would often bear the arms of the wife (assuming she is the heraldic heriess) on as either a dimidiation (briefly done early only I believe) and impalement or an inescutcheon of pretense.  Circumstances as to which one I do not have handy and would have to go and read up on again.
>
> When the wife died the husband would no longer display her arms, but they would descend to the child and they would bear it quartered.
>
>   
>>  Cisco Cividanes wrote:
>>  > Could four people marshal their arms (quartered, more likely than not)
>>  > to show common affiliation in single group?
>>     
>
> Sorry, I have never heard of or seen marshaling used in this manner.  Marshaling indicates familial inheritance, not group affiliation.  That is what we have group ensigns for.  If you display your device you are telling people you are there.  It should be unique to yo so that you can look at the banner and say, oh that is where Donnchadh is.  Not have to look and say, hmm Donnchadh's group/household whatever is here.  
>
> Alasdair
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