[ANSTHRLD] question about baronial service order award charters
kevinkeary at aol.com
kevinkeary at aol.com
Thu Aug 20 11:09:28 PDT 2009
Thank you, Robin. THIS answer I'm saving. I've been looking for it for
a long time.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com>
Sent: Thu, Aug 20, 2009 12:52 pm
Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] question about baronial service order award
charters
kevinkeary wrote:
>A while back I tried to derive an answer to the question "If an
>incoming baron or baroness does not already have the baronial service
>award, are they given it with the barony?
>
>Evidence in Ansteorra's OP seemed to indicate it could go either way
--
>I found numerous examples of ex-landeds with their service awards
dated
>the same as their investiture date, and I found numerous examples of
>ex-landeds with their service awards dated after that, often after
they
>had stepped down.
This question is easy to answer, for any herald with a long enough
memory. I
guess that means it's up to me.This was decided in Ansteorra when the
question
came before the second Crown (Lloyd and Joselyn), the first Principal
Herald
(Aureliane), and the second precedence herald (Adelicia).
They decided, based in part on the order constitutions (not charters,
which are
the scrolls) that the Principal of the Order had all rights and
privileges that
Companions have, and that Companions have the right to remain members
in
perpetuity. At that time, all baronial orders had the exact same
wording in
their constitutions.
Over time, this ruling was remembered in the central region (where
Lloyd,
Aureliane, Joselyn and Adelicia lived), but forgotten in some other
places.
Therefore Steppes has always enforced that ruling, and other baronies
have not.
Since the ruling is not published in kingdom law, it cannot be legally
forced on
the baronies that stopped using it, so it really depends on the history
of that
barony. Any barony who follows the ruling of the Crown and Principal
Herald is
clearly legally correct. Those that somehow and somewhen decided that
their
B&Bs wouldn't automatically have it? Well, people who think they don't
have an
award don't have it, for all practical purposes.
>Someone, I forget who, told me it depended on how the order's charter
>was written. If the Oak doesn't HAVE a charter, I have no idea how to
>derive an answer.
The charters are the scrolls given out in court. The constitutions are
the
rules establishing the order. In any barony that let go of the
heraldic ruling,
the constitution could establish legally that the B&Bs don't get to
keep it.
The Oak certainly has a constitution, but I doubt if anyone has looked
at it in
the last quarter century. It was one of the fill-in-the-blank ones
written by
the first king and queen, and was the basis of the original ruling.
The Oak has always abided by the heraldic ruling. (Lloyd and Joselyn
have been
vicar and vicaress, and Aureliane and Adelicia have both been baroness.
We
weren't likely to forget it.)
Adelicia and I, the fourth rulers of the Steppes, were the first ones
to already
have the Oak when we stepped up.
Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
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