[ANSTHRLD] royal badges?

Tim McDaniel tmcd at panix.com
Thu Jul 23 14:34:26 PDT 2009

On Thu, 23 Jul 2009, Alasdair MacEogan <alasdair at bmhanson.net> wrote:
> Brian O'hUilliam <brianoftheloch at gmail.com> wrote:
>>  However, RfS XI.1. under "Reserved Charges" leads to the Glossary
>>  which shows Table 1-Reserved Charges (
>>  http://heraldry.sca.org/heraldry/coagloss.html#reserved) which
>>  includes Crowns and Coronets as reserved charges.  It holds that
>>  Crowns and Coronets may only be used for "Kingdom/Principality
>>  armory; Personal armory of Society Royal Peers and Court
>>  Barons/Baronesses."

Right.  All armory appertaining to the kingdom are owned by the
kingdom, including arms of the heirs.  Even kingdom badges can have
crowns (there's a precedent for that).

Ansteorra's being old, it's listed with an owner of "Ansteorra, Crown
Prince of" and "Ansteorra, Crown Princess of".  In modern LoARs, it
would be registered to "Ansteorra, Kingdom of" with purposes of "for
the Prince" and "for the Princess".

Even though new armory cannot be registered for royal consorts or
heirs, they can still be changed.  The fact that Ansteorra's have
crowns means that crowns are grandfathered for that armory, even if
current rules forbad it, which they don't as aforesaid.

>>  This leads me to believe that the Crowns must be removed from the
>>  devices of the P&P in order to comply with Laurel

Nope.  Once an item is registered, Laurel cannot alter it without
express permission from the owner.  The basic statement that
constrains the CoA is in Corpora.  It is echoed and implemented by SCA
CoA Admin Handbook III.B.1

     1. Armory Registered by the College of Arms - All armory
        registered by the College will be listed in the Society
        Armorial and Ordinary and protected from conflict against
        future submissions. Once registered, an item shall be protected
        until written notice of release is received by the Laurel
        Office from the owner. ... Protection shall apply even if the
        item in question could not be registered under the Rules for
        Submission currently in effect (Grandfather Clause).

>>  and would also explain why the orginal submissions for the devoces
>>  for the P&P did not include Crowns.

August 1978 is when they were registered.  You'd have to do some
archaeology to find out about the rules in effect then.

>>  So it seems that the Prince could use the Kingdom arms, minus the
>>  Crown and with the addition of the label

No, he can't.  Registered armory is registered in that exact form.
Adding or removing a charge changes the armory: it is not owned by
that owner (unless they've already registered that variant), and they
have no more right to use it than to use unrelated arms.  The
exception is registered arms + a label, q.v.

There are groups that use as a badge the branch arms minus the laurel
wreath.  They should not do that, unless they register that new

> I would say that the arms designated for the use of the
> Prince/Princess belong to the kingdom and thus meet the requirement
> in RfS.


> Besides no one is talking about registering the arms with the label
> so do the RfS really apply?

The Old Rules (pre-1990) said '"The heir of an armiger may bear the
armiger's arms with a label or other such mark of cadency ... These
cadenced versions of the arms need not be registered to be borne."
Rules XIV.D' <http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/1985/03/lar.html>
I'm fairly sure that there's a New Rules precedent continuing that,
but I haven't the time to look at the moment.

In any event, the ruling that forbad new armory for consorts and
heirs, <http://heraldry.sca.org/loar/2003/12/03-12cl.html>, says
explicitly that the heirs can bear the kingdom's arms with a label
("or other standard mark of cadency"), and that they are encouraged to
do so.

     Under this decision, consorts in kingdoms or principalities
     without consort's arms may use the undifferenced kingdom arms, and
     kingdoms may elect to allow both heirs to the throne to display
     the kingdom arms differenced by a label or other standard mark of
     cadency. This matches some period armorial display for royal
     arms. ...

     Kingdoms and principalities that currently have arms registered
     for the consort or heirs are encouraged to consider following
     period practice and to discontinue the use of the armory.

Daniel de Lyncoln
Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com

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