[ANSTHRLD] Kingdom Law and Groups (was Re: Chronological list of groups)

[Bob Wade]

Lady Star's original question was whether or not a Branch OP should be placed into Kingdom Law.  My advice would be not to, noting that my opinion is based on the premise of what I think Law should be (the minimal number of edicts necessay to address past and current governing issues) and the belief that a Branch OP does not currently rise to that level
 
A precedent was established at this most recent Coronation and witnessed by the Star Principal Herald and Kingdom Seneschal.  Baronies and Provinces marched ahead of other Ansteorra Branches.  Cantons marched independently from their parent Baronies.  Both groupings marched in order of their creation.  Since Moonschadowe was elevated to Provincial Status after the Ansteorran Baronnial elevation, the Barony/Province issue did not arise.  Those who operate on the premise that Law should be pro-active, or that the newly established Kingdom Tradition does not rise to the level of adddressing it, would advise otherwise.
 
If either the current or future Crowns of Ansteorra wish it, I think William's blend of the Ansteorra OP and Kingdom requirements for Branches is a good basis for the Star Princpal Heralds advice.  That framewok matches current Precedent yet allows room for potential issues to be resolved in a variety of ways --  the flexibility based on analagous interpretations of how (1) Grant/AoA level awards are tiered and (2) how in Kingdom/ out of Kingdom awards are recognized as being equivalent in Precedence but unequal in the Order of March.
 
Tostig

--- On Sun, 11/8/09, Bill Butler <chemistbb3 at yahoo.com> wrote:


From: Bill Butler <chemistbb3 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] Kingdom Law and Groups (was Re: Chronological list of groups)
To: " Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA Inc.Heralds List" <heralds at lists.ansteorra.org>
Date: Sunday, November 8, 2009, 8:11 AM


I have to agree with Star and I would use the Ansteorran Order of Presidence as that example of why.  In the OP, March order is Majesties, Highnesses, Nobility, Peers, Grants, etc, and then by cronological orderof award grant within their "group".

In Ansteorra, the Baronies, with their Nobility, are considered the highest "independent" group. Due to the requirements to become a group, you have Provinces, then Shires.  Cantons and then Colleges are under the "protection" of Baronies, so they fall in the end of the line.  This gives us a "de facto" OP for the groups

William


--- On Fri, 11/6/09, Alasdair MacEogan <alasdair at bmhanson.net> wrote:

> From: Alasdair MacEogan <alasdair at bmhanson.net>
> Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] Kingdom Law and Groups (was Re: Chronological list of groups)
> To: "Heralds List, Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <heralds at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Date: Friday, November 6, 2009, 10:27 PM
> Star Principal Herald <star at ansteorra.org>
> wrote:
> 
> >  My personal opinion is that provinces should
> always march behind
> >  baronies, as even the newest hypothetical barony
> would have ceremonial
> >  nobility. This is conflating precedence of
> individuals with
> >  theoretical precedence of groups as a whole,
> certainly, but seems a
> >  politic compromise.
> 
> In this instance, and as NOT a member of the aforesaid
> populace, I happen to disagree with you.  I feel in a
> march of GROUPS, that provinces should be co-mingled with
> groups.  Of course I also believe that branches that
> are "under the protection of" another (for lack of better
> terminology here) should march with the parent group. 
> This includes cantons as well as the institutional branches
> that are formed under and report through a barony.  
> 
> Remember that even though provinces have  no
> ceremonial head, they actually have a requirement for more
> members and are really laid out in kingdom law to be harder
> to achieve the status of than a barony.  Otherwise as
> you said we are "conflating precedence of individuals with
> theoretical precedence of groups".
> 
> In the end though as Francois stated at the beginning, in
> this instance we will do as directed by their
> majesties/highnesses.
> 
> Alasdair
> _______________________________________________
> Heralds mailing list
> Heralds at lists.ansteorra.org
> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/heralds-ansteorra.org
> 


      
_______________________________________________
Heralds mailing list
Heralds at lists.ansteorra.org
http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/heralds-ansteorra.org