[ANSTHRLD] Anton de LaTour name & device

[Joe McGrew]

> From: "Brian O'hUilliam" <brianoftheloch at gmail.com>
> I would say forget the the grapevine and let him add that as an "artistic
> rendering" because:
> 1) I have no idea how you'd blazon that accurately in the SCA rules, and
> 2) The grapevine would puit it over the recommended number of items on a
> device.
>
> My count:
> Agent (color of field)
> Bordure (sable)
> Sable (color of bordure and lion)
> A semy of fluer-de-lis (argent)
> Tower (azure)
> Azure (color of tower)
> Lion (sable)
>
> That's 7 right there and, as I recall, the College draws the l.ines at 7
> items (tinctures, charges, divisions, etc).
>
> With grapevine that gives you:
> Grapvine
> Purpure (color of grapes)
> Vert (color of vine)

I don't believe there were any grapes on his vine, it looked
fruitless, but point taken.

> From: Maridonna <maridonna at maridonna.com>
> Anthoni is found in Occitan names from Saint Flour, France,
> 1380-1385. Url:
> http://heraldry.sca.org/names/french/saintflour.html
>
> Names Found in Commercial Documents from Bordeaux, 1470-1520
> http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/french/bordeaux.html
> Lists several variant of 'Anthony': Anthoine, Anthoinne,
> Anthoni, Anthonio, Anthony, Anthoyne.
>
> Morlet, Marie-Therese. ?tude d?Anthroponymie Picarde:_  Les
> noms de personne en Haute Picardie aux xiii, xiv, xv
> si?cles_. Les Presses du Palais Royal, Paris, 1967. P 61
> lists <de Latour> and is dated to between 1300 and 1399.
>
> <de la Tour>, 1421, from Ary's article
> 'French Surnames from Paris, 1421, 1423 & 1438'
> http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/french/paris1423surnames.html
>
> I haven't found the spelling de Letour so far.

Thank you very much, I will pass these on to the submitter.

> From: Tim McDaniel <tmcd at panix.com>
> That's one of the major purposes of the list, so by all means do so!
>
> In future questions, please put a specific name or description into
> the subject line, like
>     Subject: Anton de LaTour name
>     Subject: Anton de LaTour: tower, grapevine, bordure
> or whatever.  That helps people who want to refer to a particular
> threadlet, instead of trying to distinguish generic subjects like
> "Consult help" versus "Help, please" versus ...

Fixed, thank you.

*snip*
> The doors and windows on the tower are artistic details that are not
> blazoned.  If I can't see a grapevine, I can't blazon it, so
>
> Argent, atop a tower azure a lion passant guardant sable, all within a
> bordure sable semy-de-lis argent.
>
> Tinctures: argent + azure + sable
> Charges: tower + lion + bordure + fleur-de-lys
> Rule-of-thumb complexity: 7.  As noted in another reply to your note,
> if there were a grapevine proper, it would add vert + brown at least,
> blowing past the rule-of-thumb limit and probably causing a return.
> (I think actual grapes would be present only if you specified
> "fructed", but I don't have a Pict Dict handy to check.)

I believe I will suggest leaving the grape vine in as an artistic
detail.  The submitter mentioned that his person is going to be
affiliated or modeled in some way with the Detour vineyard, thus the
desire for a grapevine in the depiction.

Thank you everyone for the information.

Gregor