[ANSTHRLD] Inheriting augmented arms or reserved charges?

doug bell magnus77840 at hotmail.com
Tue Aug 3 13:40:02 PDT 2010


This issue should be posted to the discussion of the new rules 
under OSCAR.

Magnus

> From: darin.herndon at chk.com
> To: heralds at lists.ansteorra.org
> Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 15:22:20 -0500
> Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] Inheriting augmented arms or reserved charges?
> 
> I thought, when I first read Daniel's question, that I knew the answer to this.  But after reading the responses and going searching myself through various editions of the Admin Handbook and RfS, I find it is not as clearly stated as I thought.
> 
> I believed that I remembered a note in a prior version of the Admin Handbook that explicitly stated the answer with an example.  What I remember is the line Alasdair listed from AH IV.G.3 that stated "The new submitter must establish personal entitlement to use any restricted or reserved element contained in any armory transferred."  Except I remember seeing it with an example that if the arms included a ducal coronet and the heraldic heir was not of ducal rank then the heir could only display and claim the arms as their own arms if they displayed the without the restricted charge.
> 
> I cannot find that anywhere and now I am wondering if I read that in an article instead of an old AH.
> 
> 1) I would interpret (though I am not Laurel or the BoD so my interpretation would not even get you a doughnut at a heraldic symposium) that the heir owns the arms and has full power to make legal decisions about the arms (permission to conflict, release, transfer, etc.).
> 
> 2) I would interpret that the heir displaying the arms attributed to the original owner ("these are the arms of the lamented Duke Zed and we have set up a display of pictures of him here at this remembrance fire") would be unquestioned.
> 
> 3) I would interpret the real issue would be when the heir takes the arms in question for personal use.  "I have inherited 'Vert, a unicorn argent between three ducal coronets Or.' and I intend to display them as arms to represent myself, Lord Jo-Bob."  I think the line in Section 3 is fairly clear that you should not be able to do that with the restricted charges included.  But even taking my original thoughts into account (which I now question the source and veracity of), I don't like the "drop the restricted charge option".  Dropping the restricted charge in the above option would leave "Vert, a unicorn argent." which could directly conflict with "Vert, a unicorn argent." for which Duke Zed gave permission to conflict to his younger brother 15 years ago.  Simply removing the restricted charges could create more problems.
> (*All armory and names in the above example were made up for this argument and I have not looked to see if such arms or names are actually registered.)
> 
> I think asking for a clearer statement from Laurel and a clearer definition in the Admin Handbook would be a useful thing, especially as our Society approaches its fiftieth year.
> 
> Etienne
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: heralds-bounces+darin.herndon=chk.com at lists.ansteorra.org [mailto:heralds-bounces+darin.herndon=chk.com at lists.ansteorra.org] On Behalf Of Jennifer Smith
> Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 2:04 PM
> To: Heralds List, Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.
> Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] Inheriting augmented arms or reserved charges?
> 
> Good find, Alasdair.
> 
> I would offer the opinion that there is a lovely grey area between
> "owns" and "can personally bear/use", for cases of heraldic property.
> 
> -Emma
> 
> 
> On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 2:02 PM, Alasdair MacEogan <alasdair at bmhanson.net> wrote:
> > Admin Handbook IV.G Heraldic Wills  states:
> >
> > "3. Upon the actual death of the owner, the designated heir may ask for a transfer of the item(s) willed to that designated heir. The submission is handled as any other transfer, except that instead of the letter extending the transfer and accepting the transfer, the submitter notes the existence of the heraldic will and the death of the prior owner.
> >
> > The new submitter must establish personal entitlement to use any restricted or reserved element contained in any armory transferred."
> >
> > I think the key bit here is that the person who inherits the arms must show "personal entitlement".  I would say that extends to  the augmentation and entitlement to the augmentation must be shown before it can be inherited.
> >
> > Alasdair
> 
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