[ANSTHRLD] Gules, on a dance counter-ermine, a plate

Tim McDaniel tmcd at panix.com
Sat Aug 21 22:13:42 PDT 2010


It's best to have a subject line that's unique to the question,
to make it easier to sort thru the list.

Konrad Novak / Gary Koehler <garylkoehler at yahoo.com> asked about
"Gules, on a dance counter-ermine, a plate".

Tostig / Bob Wade <logiosophia at yahoo.com> wrote:
> There are not one, but two problems. Not only does the sable portion
> of the counter-ermine dance have insufficient contrast with the
> gules field, the plate has _no_ contrast with the white ermine
> spots.

I agree with the first. The specific part of the RfS for the first is
<http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/rfs.html#8.2>:

"The colors are azure, gules, purpure, sable, and vert (blue, red,
purple, black, and green). Ermined furs or field treatments on a
background of one of these tinctures are treated as colors for
contrast in the Society."

"Good contrast exists between: ... A metal and a color;"
[there are three other cases that do not apply in this case]

"The field must have good contrast with every charge placed directly
on it and with charges placed overall."

However, there *is* good contrast by that rule between counter-ermine
(predominantly color) and argent (metal). You just have to draw the
counter-ermine spots so that they don't touch the plate.  I couldn't
find a precedent between Da'ud 1.1 and Francois 1 (the precedents I
had to hand).  I did find these registered since 2000:

Aleyne Edwinson|200610N|d|Argent, an alant's head erased gules within
a bordure counter-ermine.

Alisoun Brewster|200802S|b|Counter-ermine, on a saltire argent a rose
purpure barbed vert.

Anastasia Guta|200409E|d|Per pale purpure and argent, a chevron per
pale ermine and counter-ermine.

Athelas of the Knife|200212W|d|Counter-ermine, two unicorns combattant
Or armed gules and in chief a Saracen's head cabossed proper turbaned
argent.

Beatrice de Winslow|200207T|b|(Fieldless) An antelope's head erased
argent collared counter-ermine.

and I left off there.

> A fess is a central and geometrically simple charge capable of being
> voided/fimbriated. I didn't find a precedent saying that a dance
> qualifies, but my experiments with the 90% photo-reduction test
> weren't encouraging.

In Francois 1 armory precedents, I see

[Gules, on a fess rayonny argent fimbriated sable ...] The device form
shows a fess rayonny argent fimbriated sable. While varying degrees of
outline thickness may be allowed due to artistic license, this artwork
cannot reasonably be interpreted any other way, since the outlines of
all the other charges are a normal, much thinner, line. We do not
allow charges argent fimbriated sable on a gules field. This must be
returned for redrawing. [Roise inghean ui Ruaidhri, 09/01, R-Calontir]

Note that it was returned due to contrast, not due to fimbriating a
complex line.  See also

[on a cross ermine ... a cross sable] Concerning the device, precedent
indicates that fimbriating in a fur is not registerable heraldic style
...  Heraldic designs which are equivalent for purposes of conflict
are not always equivalent for purposes of style ... you can "blazon
your way out of" a style problem. ...

Therefore, we can consider whether this submission is a registerable
depiction of an ermine cross charged with a sable cross, without being
concerned about the fact that a cross sable fimbriated ermine is not
registerable. This submission does have an acceptable depiction of a
cross ermine charged with a cross sable. In this depiction, the
portion of the ermine cross that shows is wide enough so that the
ermine spots lying upon the cross are clearly identifiable: they are
not too small to be identified, and THE ERMINE SPOTS AND THE TERTIARY
CROSS DO NOT OVERLAP, AND THUS DO NOT OBSCURE EACH OTHERS'
IDENTIFIABILITY [emphasis added]. This submission is therefore
stylistically acceptable.  [Adriana von Grimme, 05/03, A-Atenveldt]

The complex-line fimbriated fesses that I found registered since 2000
were these:

Johann Grauenwolf|200403C|b|Sable, a fess wavy vert fimbriated and in
sinister chief a mullet of eight points Or.

Mitsuhide Shinjiro|200902A|d|Gules, on a fess wavy sable fimbriated
five roundels in annulo argent.|(Full form: Mitsuhide Shinjir{o-})

Rochelle de la Mer|200702R|d|Sable, on a fess wavy azure fimbriated a
mermaid in her vanity argent.

Only the last registration had a comment, that Rochelle is her legal
given name.

I suppose that the RfS VIII.3 statement, "Voiding and fimbriation may
only be used with simple geometric charges placed in the center of the
design." means that the basic type of the charge has to be simple
geometric, regardless of the compelx line.  (I have a dim memory that
there's a precedent on this ...)


Now, if the submitter wants period style comments on "Gules, on a
dance counter-ermine fimbriated [metal], a plate", I could make them.

Daniel Lincolnia
-- 
Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com



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