[ANSTHRLD] Woulfe - Irish Names & Surnames

Wed Jul 28 23:27:10 PDT 2010

I'm sorry to hear that on the Seawinds copy of OCM.  I don't know what I 
would do without my copy.  Probably go into withdrawl...

FYI, for folks who are not aware, googlebooks has a number of the older 
standard sources we use, though in some cases they are older editions.

Here's some:

Bardsley (1901 edition)
http://books.google.com/books?id=RbkEAAAAIAAJ

Johnston, _Place-Names of Scotland_ (2nd ed., 1903) [3rd edition is the 
most recent.]
http://books.google.com/books?id=J58zIGlBgs4C

Johnston also did another book:
Johnston, _The Place-Names of England and Wales_ (1916 ed.)
http://books.google.com/books?id=wxtAAAAAYAAJ

Searle
http://books.google.com/books?id=RLkEAAAAIAAJ

and the 1837 printed volume of the 1292 census of Paris is at:
http://books.google.com/books?id=YTwDAAAAYAAJ

There are some others but I can't remember what they are right now.

Also, avoid the copy of Woulfe on Google books.  It's the first edition 
and is tiny (both in quality and quantity) compared to his later, 
updated edition.

Enjoy!

Mari

On 7/29/2010 12:55 AM, Joseph Percer wrote:
> It helps quite a bit. Having been out of reach of any sort of heraldic
> library for a while has left me remembering which sources are the best for
> which element and language. Also seawinds' copy of oc&m seems to be AWOL at
> the moment. Thanks for taking the time to look this up for me.
>
> Jayme
>
> On Jul 29, 2010 12:49 AM, "Kathleen O'Brien"<mari_1184 at att.net>  wrote:
>    
>> Hi!
>>
>> The book we see most often by Woulfe is a compilation of two works of
>> his, one on given names and one on surnames.
>>
>> The given name section is so full of modern forms that it's basically
>> useless for our purposes. There are a few entries that are useful in
>> that section, but they are rare. This entry looks like it comes from
>> that section. However, it does assert that it's the name of a saint.
>> So, you may be okay. (see further down this message)
>>
>> The surname section is very useful for our purposes; not perfect, but
>> then nothing is. In that section, the Gaelic surname forms mostly date
>> from Woulfe's period (c 1900) but the vast majority are also appropriate
>> for late period. (I can think of two that have found to be wrong so far
>> - out of hundreds in that section) In the subheaders, the italicized
>> Anglicized Irish forms come from the Fiants of Elizabeth or the Patent
>> Rolls of James I. So, the subheaders in italics are documented for
>> temp. Elizabeth I - James I in Anglicized Irish. The subheaders that
>> are in regular font (not italicized) are not dated to period.
>>
>> Now, back to Caoimhe...
>>
>> Yep. I just checked, it's in Woulfe's given names section.
>>
>> OCM is indexed by early spellings, and an earlier form of<Caoimhe>
>> would start out<C{a'}em->  but I'm not seeing a name that would become
>> <Caoimhe>  later.
>>
>> Here we go. The Martyrology of Gorman list this saint. This source is
>> online at Google books - just search on the title. Martyrology of
>> Gorman is so unusual, it should just come up. Anyway, the first
>> paragraph of the preface describes this source, that it "...was composed
>> in the latter part of the twelfth century by an Irish abbot, and is
>> contained in a single manuscript transcribed in or about the year 1630
>> by one of the Four Masters, Michael O'Clery..."
>>
>> So, if someone wants the name of a saint, then this source is good to
>> show that the saint was still known around the year 1630. However, the
>> exact spellings found here are often in oblique cases and are all Middle
>> Irish because they don't seem to have been updated when the original
>> work was copied into this source aroudn 1630. So, just because you find
>> a spelling in the text does not mean that spelling is registerable as a
>> given name.
>>
>> In general, the Martyrology of Gorman is useful for research, but I sure
>> as heck would not put it in front of a submitter to pick out a name from
>> - simply because of all the issues with interpreting the info in it.
>>
>> Anyway, the Martyrology of Gorman has in its index (p. 343) a listing:
>>
>> C{o'}eme, virg. of Cell Ch{o'}eme, Ap. 4, Nov. 2. Spelt Coema at Ap. 4,
>> and at Ap. 4 Mart. Taml. has C{o'}ine Cille C{o'}ine.
>>
>> Looking in the text, November 2nd is on p. 210. There it lists the
>> saint's name as<Coemhi>, but it's in a context that is a non-nominative
>> case. It's worth noting that a footnote indicates the saint was Scottish.
>>
>> So, we know that the saint was known in period (which supports Woulfe's
>> statement). We know that the Middle Irish (c900-c1200) form of her name
>> was something like<C{o'}eme>, and that she was at least known as late
>> as around 1630. Given this info, it's reasonable that an Early Modern
>> Irish form of her name would have been used to refer to her in late
>> period.<Caoimhe>  looks about like what I would expect as an EMIr form
>> of<C{o'}eme>, but I can't be absolutely 100% sure.
>>
>> If the submitter likes this name, it's probably registerable under the
>> guidelines for use of a saint's name, but it would have to get discussed
>> in commentary to see what issues are found.
>>
>> If the submitter wants to be authentic, then a saint's name is not the
>> way to go in Irish - they considered saint's names too holy to give to
>> their kids in period. (Though that practice stopped long ago, though
>> after period, as the names of bunches of my Irish Catholic ancestors can
>> attest to...)
>>
>> Hope this helps,
>>
>> Mari
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/28/2010 9:30 PM, Kihe Blackeagle wrote:
>>      
>>> Far better to find a source that *IS* dated - and a form that is more
>>>        
> likely not normalized to a more modern spelling. (In the middle of trying to
> resolve major system issues or I would look up the - relatively recent -
> Pelican Sovereign ruling on Woulfe...)
>    
>>> Amra - curmudgeon-in-training
>>>
>>>
>>> ttfn - Mike / Pax ... Kihe / Adieu, Amra
>>>
>>> Mike C. Baker / Kihe Blackeagle
>>> Opinions? I'm FULL of 'em
>>> SCA: al-Sayyid Amr ibn Majid al-Bakri al-Amra, F.O.B, OSCA
>>> "Other": Reverend Kihe Blackeagle PULC (the DreamSinger Bard)
>>> alt. e-mail: KiheBard at hotmail.com
>>> Buy my writings!: http://www.lulu.com/WizardsDen
>>> http://www.livejournal.com/users/kihebard/
>>>
>>>
>>>        
>>>> From: jpercer at gmail.com
>>>> Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2010 20:51:52 -0500
>>>> To: heralds at lists.ansteorra.org
>>>> Subject: [ANSTHRLD] Woulfe - Irish Names&  Surnames
>>>>
>>>> Greetings,
>>>>
>>>> Question on names in Woulfe, specifically names written in Gaelic - but
>>>>          
> no
>    
>>>> date given - what's the word on these names being "period"?
>>>>
>>>> The name being looked at specifically:
>>>>
>>>> sn<Caoimhe>  pg 208 "an Irish name, signifying gentleness, beauty, grace,
>>>> courtesy, borne by a Scoto-Irish saint whose feast-day is 2 Nov. Lat
>>>> Pulcheria.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Jayme
>>>> --
>>>> Joseph M. Percer, AAS, LP
>>>>
>>>>          
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