[ANSTHRLD] Latin Name Help Request - philologus

Bob Wade logiosophia at yahoo.com
Wed Jun 2 11:14:35 PDT 2010


My thanks to all for your help.  (Yes, Lady Orbis, I know better than to say something is "documentable as a personal throughout period" rather than "documentable in the 1st century as a personal name and known throughout period" when I'm not short of sleep.  Thank you again for the thumb-drive).  As your research suggested, I was "toast".
 
<philologus> fits the ABPS best, but will specify <clericus> as an acceptable major change if deemed two SFPP.  (Arynway documented it to the 8th c in a Saxcon document on another list, but suggested Saxon's tended towards common words for descriptive epithets).  I can't document Tosti any earlier than the Conquest (except through ONN).
 
Thank you all again for your kind assistance.
 
Tostig



--- On Tue, 6/1/10, Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith at sbcglobal.net> wrote:


From: Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] Latin Name Help Request - philologus
To: "Heralds List, Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <heralds at lists.ansteorra.org>
Date: Tuesday, June 1, 2010, 4:41 AM


Tostig wrote:
> I'd like to do a name change from the registered Tostig Logiosophia to its nearest Latin equivalent.  The given name shouldn't be a problem ('Tosti' and 'Tostius' are in the Domesday Book).

You didn't say to what period you'd like your name to date.  I found some later spellings, though no later instances of the name's use.

One "Tostius comes Northimbrensis" is a significant figure in 11th-century events described in the seventh book of Ranulf Higden's 14th-century _Polychronicon_ <http://books.google.com/books?id=xMlCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA214>.  John Trevisa, who translated the _Polychronicon_ into Middle English around 1387, rendered the name "Tostius eorle of Norþhumberlond", and the unknown author of MS Harland 2261 (a 15th-century translation of the same text) also used that spelling for the given name <http://books.google.com/books?id=xMlCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA217>.

I think Pierre de Langtoft was describing the same individual when he wrote of "Tostus, counte de Cumberland" in his chronicle <http://www.archive.org/stream/chroniclepierre01wriggoog#page/n433/mode/1up/>, which was penned in "the French of Yorkshire" in the 13th century <http://www.archive.org/stream/chroniclepierre01wriggoog#page/n36/mode/1up>.  The name is given as "Tostus of Cumbirland" in Robert Mannyng of Brunne's "illustrated and improved" translation, completed around 1338 (as transcribed by Thomas Hearne in 1725) <http://www.archive.org/stream/peterlangtoftsc00theagoog#page/n296/mode/1up>.

Iohn Hardyng, in his 15th-century chronicle, names the same man "The earle Tosty then of Northumberlande", according to Henry Ellis' 1812 transcription <http://www.archive.org/stream/chronicleiohnha00grafgoog#page/n255/mode/1up>.  'Course, that doesn't look to be Latin. . .but it might give you an idea of how it was pronounced in the vernacular.

By the way, the online Middle English Dictionary shows "tostus" as a (Latinized, I think) word meaning "a slice or piece of browned bread" <http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/m/mec/med-idx?type=id&id=MED46460>, and "tosty" as one form of a word describing either "a toasted piece of bread" or "a culinary dish made with toasted bread" <http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/m/mec/med-idx?type=id&id=MED46467>, just so you know.


> "Philolgus" is documentable throughout Period as a given name (Romans 16:15).  Is that sufficient to support either "Tostius philologus"  given the occupational naming pattern "X clericus" in the Domesday Book or the desciptive naming pattern "Beda venerablis"(The venerable Bede)?

First, the fact that a name appears in some version of the Book of Romans does not mean it's "documentable throughout period as a given name".  There were multiple period forms of the Bible, lots of places and times where Biblical names were seldom or never used, and plenty of Biblical names that were rarely or never seen even in areas where other Biblical names were common.  And even those names that had a wide distribution didn't stay the same across the continent and throughout the centuries.  Consider "Iago" and "Jacotin", or "Elisavefa" and "Ersebet".  If you want to use the name, you need to find evidence of the use of a specific variant in an appropriate place and time.

Second, even if you can show "Philolgus" in use as a given name in a context compatible with one to which you can document "Tostius", that doesn't do anything to support it as a descriptive or occupational byname.  (Maybe an unmarked patronymic, if it happens to be a context in which those were used.)

"Clericus" is a pretty straightforward job title; I don't see any parallel between that and "philolgus".  As I recall, it's pretty nigh unique in its use in the Domesday book, too (though I haven't double-checked that), so there may not really a pattern of use there to implement.

I don't know that Bede was called "the Venerable" during his lifetime.  (Again, I haven't checked.)  But even if he was, modeling your byname on a title of respect only ever given to one very special historical figure would be more than a bit shaky.

Detlef von Marburg mentioned:
> "Grammaticus" is a name given to someone who is known for his ability to write Latin (which would definitely count me out; I can barely READ Latin).

It appears in the Middle English Dictionary as the Latin form of "gramarien", which is given that definition, but also "a philologist, an etymologist" and "in a more general sense: any learned man" <http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/m/mec/med-idx?type=id&id=MED19214>.


Coblaith Muimnech


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