[ANSTHRLD] Conflict and Blazon Check - Assistance Needed

Kazimierz Złowieszczy kazoflr at gmail.com
Mon Nov 29 08:42:00 PST 2010


Yes, the submitter will consider a heraldic dolphin in place of a modern
dolphin, if we believe this change will clear conflicts.

Thank you to everyone who spent time and energy assisting me in this
endeavor.

On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 2:44 PM, Bob Wade <logiosophia at yahoo.com> wrote:

> A heraldic rather than a natural dolphin would clear with a 2nd CD for type
> versus Frosted Hills.  Would the submitter consider the heraldic charge
> rather than someting which is a Step From Period Practice?
>
> --- On Wed, 11/24/10, Jennifer Smith <jds at randomgang.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: Jennifer Smith <jds at randomgang.com>
> Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] Conflict and Blazon Check - Assistance Needed
> To: "Heralds List, Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <
> heralds at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Date: Wednesday, November 24, 2010, 2:47 PM
>
>
> Sigh. Well, in that case, I went to Fish-Other and did the same sort
> of search, and found only this potential conflict:
>
> Frosted Hills, Shire of
> The following badge associated with this name was registered in
> November of 2004 (via the East):
> (Fieldless) A sturgeon naiant azure.
>
> There's one CD for the field, but the other will have to come from if
> there is a CD between a natural dolphin and a sturgeon or not.  Time
> for another precedent dive, but I've got to go get a cake out of the
> oven here in a few minutes. :)
>
> IF it turns out to be a conflict, it's may be possible to get a Letter
> of Permission to Conflict from that Shire, particularly as it's so far
> away geographically.
>
> -Emma
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 2:05 PM, doug bell <magnus77840 at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sorry, there is no difference between a heraldic and a natural
> dolphin.This also means the natural dolphin azure may also conflict with
> > standard fish.  Back to the conflict checking.
> > Magnus
> >
> > [June 2005 LoAR, A-Atlantia] Atlantia, Kingdom
> > of.
> > Badge for Order of the Herring. (Fieldless) A herring urinant
> > argent.
> > This does not conflict with the badge for the Order of the Dolphin
> > of Caid,
> > Azure, a dolphin embowed uriant to sinister argent.
> > There is a CD for
> > fieldlessness and another for the difference
> > between a heraldic dolphin
> > and a herring. Precedent states:
> >
> > [Per fess engrailed azure and vert, in chief a natural dolphin
> > argent] ...
> > this conflicts with Anton de Winton, Per chevron
> > azure, and Or scaly sable,
> > in chief a herring naiant embowed argent.
> > There is one CD for changing the
> > field. There is no difference for
> > changing the type of fish. A natural dolphin is not apparently a
> > period heraldic charge, and thus its difference from other
> > charges
> > must be determined on visual grounds under RfS X.4.e. Comparing
> > this
> > dolphin with Anton's herring, the outlines of the two charges are
> > very similar.
> > They both have slightly forked tails (it is impossible
> > to tell whether the tail is
> > supposed to have horizontal or vertical
> > flukes without resorting to internal
> > details, and Anton's dolphin
> > lacks these). Both creatures have a dorsal fin
> > and a forefin. The
> > "beak" or "bottle-nose" on a natural dolphin
> > helps identify it as a natural dolphin, but is not a sufficient
> > outline difference to give a CD
> > from a herring.
> >
> > Note that this ruling does not revoke the many rulings that grant
> > no difference between a heraldic and a natural dolphin. Given the
> > well established trends owards naturalism in Renaissance art and
> > Renaissance heraldic art, it is possible that a natural dolphin might
> > have been used as an artist's variant of a heraldic dolphin.
> > Without
> > evidence for natural dolphins in period heraldry, the natural dolphin
> > will conflict both with heraldic dolphins and with standard-outlined
> > fish, like herring.
> > [Helga Iden dohtir, 04/02, R-Caid]
> >
> > However, conflict is not transitive and there is a CD between a
> > heraldic dolphin
> > and a fish such as a herring. The precedent "There's
> > a CD between dolphins and
> > most kinds of fish. (Alethea of Fair Isle,
> > October, 1992, pg. 16)" applies to
> > heraldic dolphins, not
> > natural dolphins.
> >
> >  > I am fairly sure there is at least a CD (and possibly X.2 difference)
> >> between a natural dolphin (aka bottle-nosed dolphin) and a heraldic
> >> dolphin, but that would take a short dig through the precedents to
> >> uncover the exact ruling. Fortunately, we don't have to, because there
> >> aren't any even close!
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/heralds-ansteorra.org
> >
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-- 
Pan Kazimierz Złowieszczy
Lordy Lord Kaz the Sinister



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