[ANSTHRLD] Device attempt 2

Charles Armitage charlesarmitage at yahoo.com
Thu Apr 21 17:01:03 PDT 2011


So mine would be more like: Sable, two bendlets engrailed argent, overall a Phoenix issuant from flames proper

Or do I need to specify the Phoenix color as well and place "or" in it?

Sable, two bendlets engrailed argent, overall a Phoenix Or issuant from flames proper

I'm also imagining that since this is only missing the border and the bendlets being engailed, that it's too close to the device for Roger St. Neot de Blaise that it wouldn't pass?

Sent from my iPhone 3G

On Apr 21, 2011, at 6:38 PM, Bob Wade <logiosophia at yahoo.com> wrote:

> No, "proper" means only one thing when used as a tincture.  It doesn't vary from field to field with only one exception I can think of -- flames.  Alternating Or and gules, the outside flames are Or on a color field but gules on a metal field.  BTW although the Precedent cited by Etienne specifies what a phoenix proper is, that hasn't carried over to the SCA default table http://heraldry.sca.org/coagloss.html#proper
>  
> With your redesign involving a sable field, argent bendlets and a phoenix proper, we need to be aware of both
> "Sable, two bendlets argent, overall a phoenix Or issuant from flames proper within a bordure argent."  (Roger St. Neot de Blaise, Device, July 1984 [via Ansteorra]) and
> "Sable, a cloudless natural rainbow in the shape of a crescent inverted, overall a phoenix of flames rising, all proper." (Kormack O'Kelly, Device, June 1982 [via Atlantia])
> 
> Tostig
> 
> --- On Thu, 4/21/11, Pat Mullins <paedrics at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Pat Mullins <paedrics at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] Device attempt 2
> To: " Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA Inc.Heralds List" <heralds at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Date: Thursday, April 21, 2011, 3:31 PM
> 
> 
> I suspect that like flames proper, a phoenix proper would vary based on the field color, ie gold  with red highlights and details on a color background, red with gold highlights and details on a metal. But that's just a guess.
> Paedric
> 
> --- On Thu, 4/21/11, Etienne de St. Amaranth <st.amaranth at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Etienne de St. Amaranth <st.amaranth at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] Device attempt 2
> To: " Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA Inc.Heralds List" <heralds at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Date: Thursday, April 21, 2011, 2:23 PM
> 
> 
> From the precedents of Bruce Draconarius (taken from the online compiled and indexed precedents as the eighth item under the heading Proper):
> 
> [A phoenix gules, enflamed proper] The phoenix was blazoned on the LOI as proper, with the 12th Century Cambridge Bestiary cited as the authority (via Dennys' Heraldic Imagination). While the Bestiary describes the phoenix as "reddish purple," I would hesitate to define that as its heraldically proper tincture. As it turns out, there's at least one period heraldic example of a phoenix proper: the crest of the Worshipful Company of Painters, granted 1486, is blazoned a Fenyx in his propre nature and coloure. That phoenix is colored mostly gold, with red highlights and details. (Bromley & Child, Armorial Bearings of the Guilds of London, p.184 and plate 39)
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Etienne
> 
> --- On Thu, 4/21/11, Tim McDaniel <tmcd at panix.com> wrote:
> 
>> From: Tim McDaniel <tmcd at panix.com>
>> Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] Device attempt 2
>> To: "Heralds List, Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <heralds at lists.ansteorra.org>
>> Date: Thursday, April 21, 2011, 2:11 PM
>> On Thu, 21 Apr 2011, charles armitage
>> <charlesarmitage at yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Sable, two bendlets argent and overall a phoenix
>> proper.
>>> 
>>> This is a black field with two white lines running
>> from upper left to lower
>>> right and a phoenix in full color in the center
>> overtop the
>>> lines, yes?
>> 
>> What is a "phoenix proper"?  Flames proper I know --
>> alternating
>> tongues of yellow and red -- but what's the tincture of the
>> birdie
>> part?
>> 
>> Danett de Lincoln
>> -- 
>> Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com
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>> Heralds mailing list
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