[ANSTHRLD] On a mullet of eight points a cross

Bob Wade logiosophia at yahoo.com
Sun Jun 12 18:34:25 PDT 2011


An example in RfS X.4j(ii) reads "Argent, a lion rampant gules charged with a cross crosslet Or does not have a clear difference from Argent, a lion rampant gules charged with a heart Or because the lion is too complex in outline to be voided. Gules, on a mullet of six points Or a cross crosslet sable does not have a clear difference from Gules, on a mullet of six points Or a pellet because the interior of a correctly drawn mullet of six points is too small."
 
It was upheld as recently as Mar 2010,
 
William Gordon. Badge. (Fieldless) On a mullet of four points Or, a sinister hand couped sable. 

This badge is returned for conflict with the badge of Astra Christiana Benedict, (Tinctureless) On a mullet a cross crosslet. There is a CD for comparing a tinctureless and tinctured design, but all other CDs must come from something other than tincture. Mullets are not suitable for purposes of section X.4.j.ii of the Rules for Submissions. There is, therefore, no CD for changing only the type of the tertiary charge.
 
(LoAR Mar 2010, R-Ansteorra)

--- On Sun, 6/12/11, doug bell <magnus77840 at hotmail.com> wrote:


From: doug bell <magnus77840 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] On a mullet of eight points a cross
To: heralds at lists.ansteorra.org
Date: Sunday, June 12, 2011, 3:28 PM






    
    
    
    

Daniel
Have these precedents been superceded?
Magnus


[May 2004 LoAR, A-Atlantia]
Brenna of
    Storvik and Gauss Magnússon. Joint badge for House Golden
    Raven.(Fieldless) On a mullet of eight points sable a bird Or. 
    

The submitters have a letter of permission to conflict with Eliahu
ben Itzhak: 
Or, on a mullet of six points sable, a griffin
segreant contourny Or and Or, on a 
mullet of six points sable,
a griffin sejant to sinister erect, grasping in its dexter talon
three arrows inverted and in its sinister talon a paintbrush and
palette, all Or.
[April 2003 LoAR, R-Atlantia]
Brenna of
    Storvik and Gauss Magnússon. Badge. (Fieldless) 
On a mullet of
    eight points sable a bird Or. 
    

The College generally felt that this bird, drawn in some sort of
early period artistic 
stylization, was not recognizable as a raven.
However, this charge is clearly identifiable as a bird close, albeit
a stylized one. We have therefore reblazoned it as a bird.

The badge conflicts with the device of Eliahu ben Itzhak, Or,
on a mullet of six points 
sable, a griffin segreant contourny Or.
There is one CD for fieldlessness. There is no difference between
mullets of six and eight points: "The rules for change of type
of mullets follow the rules for change of number of charges. Mullets
of n points will get a CD from 
mullets of m points if
RfS X.4.f gives a CD for changing the number of charges from n
to m." 
(LoAR of February 2002, Ansteorra acceptances).
Since RfS X.4.f states that "Six and 
higher numbers ... are not
significantly different from each other", there is no difference 
between mullets of six and eight points.

Note that there is no meaningful posture comparison between birds
and griffins. 
If there were, we would expect the change from a
griffin rampant to an eagle 
displayed to be a change in both type and
posture. This clearly has not been the 
case in the SCA, which has
seen this as a type-only comparison. And appropriately so:the
postures taken by these creatures in period heraldry are very
different and are 
generally not directly comparable. As an example:
the most common postures for 
eagles in period heraldry are close
(standing with wings folded) and displayed (the 
bird's chest and tail
facing the viewer, wings expanded, head to dexter, legs spread to 
either side of the tail). Griffins, by contrast, are virtually never
found in period heraldry with their wings folded (like a close
eagle). Nor are they found in a displayed posture 
(like a displayed
eagle).

Because there is no meaningful posture comparison between a bird
and a griffin, 
we have only changed the type of the tertiary charge
in this comparison. "There is nothing for change of type only of
tertiary charge on a sun or multipointed mullet, 
as this shape is not
simple for purposes of RfS X.4.j.ii" (LoAR February 2002).





> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 15:19:39 -0500
> From: tmcd at panix.com
> To: heralds at lists.ansteorra.org
> Subject: [ANSTHRLD] On a mullet of eight points a cross
> 
> On Sun, 12 Jun 2011, Joshua Brandl <norfildur at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> ok, now that my name and device are currently on ACE, i am starting
> >> to think about my badge, this is what i am thinking,
> >>
> >> Fieldless, On a mullet of eight points sable a cross quarterly
> >> argent and gules througout.
> >>
> >> http://www.jbrandl.net/Jbrandlbadgee.gif
> 
> Bless you for providing a picture!  I think your cross should be
> fatter, but other people might have other opinions.
> 
> I don't know if you care about the mysterious martial art of blazon
> fu, but if so,
> 
>      (Fieldless) On a mullet of eight points sable a cross quarterly
>      argent and gules.
> 
> The SCA uses "(Fieldless)" to denote a fieldless badge, but the first
> word of the blazon proper, the next word, is Capitalized.
> 
> A cross is throughout unless stated otherwise.
> 
> > i forgot to toss this into the previous email... on Oanda i have
> > found
> > (Fieldless) On a mullet of eight points sable a bird Or.
> > registered jointly with Gauss Magn{u'}sson
> > for House Golden Raven
> 
> You will always have one CD for the "fieldless bribe" against any
> other armory, even itself.
> 
> The cross in your design, and the bird in Gauss's design, are
> "tertiary" charges -- a charge entirely on a charge.  Two significant
> changes to a tertiary group gives a CD.  Here, it's type + tincture =
> the second CD.  Since the tincture "quarterly argent and gules" is
> going to be very rare for tertiaries -- I see only one *primary*
> charge using it -- that's gonna help in conflict checking.
> 
> Furthermore, it is implied by an Elizabeth I prec. (Christoff of
> Swampkeep, 05/05, R-Trimaris) that mullets are simple enough to be
> voided and fimbriated.  There's a special rule giving a benefit in
> that case:
> 
>      ii. For armory that has no more than two types of charge directly
>      on the field and has no overall charges, substantially changing
>      the type of all of a group of charges placed entirely on an
>      ordinary or other suitable charge is one clear difference. Only
>      the new submission is required to meet these conditions in order
>      to benefit from this clause. A charge is suitable for the purposes
>      of this rule if (a) it is simple enough in outline to be voided,
>      and (b) it is correctly drawn with an interior substantial enough
>      to display easily recognizable charges.
> 
> (A substantial change is not oak tree versus pine tree, for example,
> but oak tree versus rose.)  So that's an alternate path to get them
> clear: bird versus cross is a substantial change of type.
> 
> Daniel de Linccolne
> -- 
> Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com
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