[ANSTHRLD] A platypus and two sporks

Frank Schalles francisschalles at gmail.com
Fri Nov 16 20:44:33 PST 2012

I am told he has an example of it being period. I have yet to see it. I
could avoid the color on color by: Sable, on a rampant platypus Or,  2
spoons in saltire gules. This I hope clears up some of the conflict.


On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 9:21 PM, Bob Wade <logiosophia at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Yes, an Individually Attested Pattern
> http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/sena.html#A4 (fka as a  Regional Exception
> under the RfS) may be documentable, but the research must also document
> that the charges themselves and their arrangement were also used in the
> same region.
> For this submission, that would mean documenting "in a single time and
> place"(1) Multiple examples of:"Sable, a beast gules and overall a charge
> group Or." and(2) At least one instance of (2a) a "platypus" (Or beaver if
> the submitter likes the idea) as a charge, (2b) a "spork" (Or other utensil
> if the submitter likes the idea) as a charge and (2c) an overall charge
> group of two charges in saltire.
> Does the submitter want the design bad enough to do the research, Francois?
> Tostig
> --- On Fri, 11/16/12, Tim McDaniel <tmcd at panix.com> wrote:
> From: Tim McDaniel <tmcd at panix.com>
> Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] A platypus and two sporks
> To: "Heralds List, Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <
> heralds at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Date: Friday, November 16, 2012, 7:07 PM
> On Fri, 16 Nov 2012, Ron <eirik at hot.rr.com> wrote:
> >> Return for color on color: red charge on black.
> >> Standards for Evaluation of Names and Armory
> >> http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/sena.html#A3B
> >
> > Excuse me while I have a discussion with Daniel.
> >
> > A return is not automatic. If there is documented examples of a
> > gules charge on a sable field, I refer you to SENA A.4.A
> > (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/sena.html#A4) which states: " Any
> > armorial design that does not fit within our core style rules may
> > still be registered if it can be documented as following a pattern
> > of period practice within the armorial style of a single time and
> > place within the temporal scope of the Society. ...." Follow the
> > link for specific instructions on how to document the pattern.
> It's a point for more advanced heralds to know, so it shouldn't be
> considered a discussion with me in particular.
> I think a better way to word it is "A return for color-on-color, or
> other style problems, can sometimes be avoided."  But some returns are
> unavoidable (q.v.).
> It *is* possible to avoid a return for style via SENA A.4, Armory
> Individually Attested Patterns.  However, it is stated in
> http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/sena.html#GP2B
>     B. The Burden of Proof: The College of Arms and the kingdom
>     colleges of heralds should work to provide suitable documentation
>     to register a submission.  However, it is ultimately the
>     submitter's responsibility to demonstrate that a submission meets
>     the standards set forth in these rules; a complete lack of
>     documentation can be cause for return.  It is not the
>     responsibility of the Laurel office to demonstrate that a
>     submission does not meet these standards.  When the evidence is
>     equivocal, such as when there is limited reliable dated
>     information about a specific culture, in general the submitter
>     should be given the benefit of the doubt.
> and no documentation was provided.  But kingdom commenters usually
> make efforts to fill in documentation.
> Further, A.4 says
> - "Documentation under the Individually Attested Pattern rules does
>   not exempt a design from conflict, presumption, or offense rules."
>   That's what I meant above by "Some returns are unavoidable".
>   Even if you find period swastikas or Red Crosses, you can't register
>   them.
> - "All elements in an Individually Attested Pattern must be found in
>   that single time and place, including charges, arrangement of charge
>   groups, and lines of division."  So, as I read that, you'd need
>   three examples of platypodes in independent coats of arms in some
>   single period time and place.
> - I've read further but don't have the time at the moment to think
>   carefully about it.  I'm not sure, but I think you might be required
>   to show also three examples of a high-contrast charge group overall
>   of a single gules primary charge with a complex outline on a sable
>   field, or more examples that "bracket" such a pattern.  However, I'm
>   not sure of this point, because high-contrast overall charges per se
>   are part of the "core SCA style", and the way it's worded, it's not
>   clear to me that you have to document them.
> And ultimately, regardless of whatever you find on color on color, the
> use of a platypus itself is still cause for return (without
> documentation, and I'd bet a large sum of money you can't find that,
> unless it's some other charge that was drawn to look much like a
> platypus).
> Danet Lincoln
> -- Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com
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