[ANSTHRLD] A platypus and two sporks

[Andreas von Meißen]

Well, only a little, because you still have color-on-color.

SENA A.3.B.4.a reads, in part: "Primary, secondary, and overall charge
groups are considered to be placed on the field and must have good contrast
with it."

So, both the platypus and the kitchen implement must have good contrast
with the field.

-- AvM


On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 10:44 PM, Frank Schalles
<francisschalles at gmail.com>wrote:

> I am told he has an example of it being period. I have yet to see it. I
> could avoid the color on color by: Sable, on a rampant platypus Or,  2
> spoons in saltire gules. This I hope clears up some of the conflict.
>
> Francois
>
> On Fri, Nov 16, 2012 at 9:21 PM, Bob Wade <logiosophia at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Yes, an Individually Attested Pattern
> > http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/sena.html#A4 (fka as a  Regional
> Exception
> > under the RfS) may be documentable, but the research must also document
> > that the charges themselves and their arrangement were also used in the
> > same region.
> > For this submission, that would mean documenting "in a single time and
> > place"(1) Multiple examples of:"Sable, a beast gules and overall a charge
> > group Or." and(2) At least one instance of (2a) a "platypus" (Or beaver
> if
> > the submitter likes the idea) as a charge, (2b) a "spork" (Or other
> utensil
> > if the submitter likes the idea) as a charge and (2c) an overall charge
> > group of two charges in saltire.
> > Does the submitter want the design bad enough to do the research,
> Francois?
> > Tostig
> > --- On Fri, 11/16/12, Tim McDaniel <tmcd at panix.com> wrote:
> >
> > From: Tim McDaniel <tmcd at panix.com>
> > Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] A platypus and two sporks
> > To: "Heralds List, Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <
> > heralds at lists.ansteorra.org>
> > Date: Friday, November 16, 2012, 7:07 PM
> >
> > On Fri, 16 Nov 2012, Ron <eirik at hot.rr.com> wrote:
> > >> Return for color on color: red charge on black.
> > >> Standards for Evaluation of Names and Armory
> > >> http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/sena.html#A3B
> > >
> > > Excuse me while I have a discussion with Daniel.
> > >
> > > A return is not automatic. If there is documented examples of a
> > > gules charge on a sable field, I refer you to SENA A.4.A
> > > (http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/sena.html#A4) which states: " Any
> > > armorial design that does not fit within our core style rules may
> > > still be registered if it can be documented as following a pattern
> > > of period practice within the armorial style of a single time and
> > > place within the temporal scope of the Society. ...." Follow the
> > > link for specific instructions on how to document the pattern.
> >
> > It's a point for more advanced heralds to know, so it shouldn't be
> > considered a discussion with me in particular.
> >
> > I think a better way to word it is "A return for color-on-color, or
> > other style problems, can sometimes be avoided."  But some returns are
> > unavoidable (q.v.).
> >
> > It *is* possible to avoid a return for style via SENA A.4, Armory
> > Individually Attested Patterns.  However, it is stated in
> > http://heraldry.sca.org/laurel/sena.html#GP2B
> >
> >     B. The Burden of Proof: The College of Arms and the kingdom
> >     colleges of heralds should work to provide suitable documentation
> >     to register a submission.  However, it is ultimately the
> >     submitter's responsibility to demonstrate that a submission meets
> >     the standards set forth in these rules; a complete lack of
> >     documentation can be cause for return.  It is not the
> >     responsibility of the Laurel office to demonstrate that a
> >     submission does not meet these standards.  When the evidence is
> >     equivocal, such as when there is limited reliable dated
> >     information about a specific culture, in general the submitter
> >     should be given the benefit of the doubt.
> >
> > and no documentation was provided.  But kingdom commenters usually
> > make efforts to fill in documentation.
> >
> > Further, A.4 says
> >
> > - "Documentation under the Individually Attested Pattern rules does
> >   not exempt a design from conflict, presumption, or offense rules."
> >   That's what I meant above by "Some returns are unavoidable".
> >   Even if you find period swastikas or Red Crosses, you can't register
> >   them.
> >
> > - "All elements in an Individually Attested Pattern must be found in
> >   that single time and place, including charges, arrangement of charge
> >   groups, and lines of division."  So, as I read that, you'd need
> >   three examples of platypodes in independent coats of arms in some
> >   single period time and place.
> >
> > - I've read further but don't have the time at the moment to think
> >   carefully about it.  I'm not sure, but I think you might be required
> >   to show also three examples of a high-contrast charge group overall
> >   of a single gules primary charge with a complex outline on a sable
> >   field, or more examples that "bracket" such a pattern.  However, I'm
> >   not sure of this point, because high-contrast overall charges per se
> >   are part of the "core SCA style", and the way it's worded, it's not
> >   clear to me that you have to document them.
> >
> > And ultimately, regardless of whatever you find on color on color, the
> > use of a platypus itself is still cause for return (without
> > documentation, and I'd bet a large sum of money you can't find that,
> > unless it's some other charge that was drawn to look much like a
> > platypus).
> >
> > Danet Lincoln
> > -- Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com
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>
>
>
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> Change is a function of the Universe, embrace it.
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Andrew R. Mizener/ Herr Andreas von Meißen
Cadet to Warder Brighid MacCumhal
Barony of Elfsea - Nautilus Pursuivant
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