[ANSTHRLD] Is <clericus> a Registerable Byname

Doug Bell magnus77840 at yahoo.com
Fri Feb 7 12:55:18 PST 2014


Look at the commentary for Grimaldus the Chapelain March 2010.
If it comes after the name it's not a form of address.

If a clericus could only refer to an ordained member of the Church and
no one else then claim of rank MAY be an issue.

The Dean ruling may not be relevent for this case.
Like I said, has never been ruled on under SENA.

Magnus




________________________________
 From: Bob Wade <logiosophia at yahoo.com>
To: Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA Inc.Heralds List <heralds at lists.ansteorra.org> 
Sent: Friday, February 7, 2014 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] Is <clericus> a Registerable Byname
 

Thanks Magnus,

<Tostig clericus> stays clear of the locative problem, but my concern is whether it's being used as a Form of Address in the Domesday Book. (i.e. Is the translation "Tostig the cleric" or "Cleric Tostig"?)  Do you have access to the OED to see if was ever used as a form of address like was found for <dean> in the Aug 2009 Dean Alexander Montgomery Precedent?

--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 2/7/14, Doug Bell <magnus77840 at yahoo.com> wrote:


Subject: Re: [ANSTHRLD] Is <clericus> a Registerable Byname
To: "Heralds List, Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <heralds at lists.ansteorra.org>
Date: Friday, February 7, 2014, 9:01 AM

It is period so that isn't the
issue.

SENA PN.4.B is the section that controls this and this name
hasn't been ruled on.
There is little to go on in the Laurel rulings and nothing
found under SENA.

Here are a few rulings under Rfs you can read for ideas. 


The issues are:

-presumption due to use of a locative in the name and

-ordination implies claim to rank.

You have to stay clear of those.

Magnus


Grimaldus the Chapelain was registered without comment March
2010. The issue 

of rank was raised and answered in commentary.


[November 1995 LoAR, A-Caid]

Dagan Cleirech. Name and device. Per pale Or and vert semy
of shamrocks counterchanged.
The name was submitted as Dagan Cleireach (with a typo in
the LoI making the byname Cliereach). The two elements are
spelled according to the conventions of different periods:
Dagán is early, while cléireach `cleric, clerk' is
late-period or modern. To avoid changing the given name, we
have substituted the older form of the byname. (The modern
form would be Daghán Cléireach.) The name is excellent:
the epithet is even attested in just this form. (The
documentation in the LoI, however, refers to a different
name, the early hereditary surname Ua Cléirigh, which is
from Cléirech as a given name.)



[October 2009 LoAR, A-An Tir]

Selewine sacerdos Guytherin.  Name and device. Per bend
sinister purpure and Or, a patriarchal cross counterchanged.

Submitted as Selewine Offeiriad Gwytherin, no documentation
was provided that bynames of the type Offeiriad + <place
name> 'priest of <place name>' were used in Welsh.
The cited Academy of Saint Gabriel Report, #3175, only gives
evidence
for this pattern in Latin:
You are right that a
locative byname is not the best choice; during your period,
we have
found no examples of locative bynames which stand apart from
a title or
an occupation. However, among churchmen we find a wide
variety of
occupations and titular bynames, including the following
Latin terms:
[2]
>    * episcopus (bishop)
>    * magister (master, teacher)
>    * doctor (probably a teacher of some
sort)
>    * presbiter (a religious
functionary)
>    * scriptor (writer, scribe)
>    * lector (reader, lecturer)
>    * sacerdos (priest)
>    * abbas (abbot)
>    * archidiaconus (archdeacon)
>These
titles were sometimes found in association with place names,
e.g.
<abbas Nant Carban>, <sacerdos Ilduit>,
<lector
Catoci>. [2] In the first example, <Nant Carban> is
the name
of a church. In the second two examples, the Latinized given
name of
the dedicatory saint stands in for the church. This gives us
two
patterns from which we could construct a byname with the
references you
desire.
>Saint Gwenfrewy's name was recorded as
<Wenefreda>
in Latin [3,5], so <sacerdos Wenefrede> 'priest of
Wenefreda' is
a suitable byname following the pattern of the second two
examples.
(The change from <Wenfreda> [sic] to <Wenefrede>
is again a
change to the possessive form of the name.) In a "lives of
the saints"
from the early 12th century, <Gwytherin> is recorded
in Latin as
<Guytherin> [5], so based on this <sacerdos
Guytherin>
'priest of Guytherin' is also a plausible byname. [4]
We have changed the name to Selewine sacerdos Guytherin to
register it.
Some
questioned whether a byname meaning 'priest of <place
name> or
'priest of <saint's name>' is presumptuous. The use of
Offeiriad is presumptuous, because it implies ordination.
Harpy explains:
Keep
in mind that offeiriad (in whatever form) means specifically
an
ordained priest, not simply any person in religious orders.
(The word
comes originally from a root meaning "the person who makes
the offering
at mass".) If your intention is for your persona to be a
monk, but not
specifically a priest, then this isn't the word you want.
The word for
"monk" that shows up in personal names is "mynach".
RfS VI forbids the registration of names which appear to
make claims to powers or ranks that the submitter does not
have. Since Offeiriad implies ordination, and we do not
ordain people in the SCA, it is not registerable. The word
sacerdos, on the other hand, does not have the connotation
of ordination, so it does not violate RfS VI.1 or VI.2.
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