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<TITLE>RE: [ANSTHRLD] Wisdom and comments desired</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>Yes, the swords are in an X and yes the dragon is on all fours. </FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>From: heralds-bounces+francis.schalles=ttuhsc.edu@ansteorra.org [<A HREF="mailto:heralds-bounces+francis.schalles=ttuhsc.edu@ansteorra.org">mailto:heralds-bounces+francis.schalles=ttuhsc.edu@ansteorra.org</A>] On Behalf Of tmcd@panix.com</FONT></P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 2:16 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>To: Heralds List, Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Subject: RE: [ANSTHRLD] Wisdom and comments desired</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>On Thu, 23 Mar 2006, Tom Johnson <tdj_ent@hotmail.com> wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> [someone else wrote:]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >The existing:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >*</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > {<A HREF="http://heraldry.ansteorra.org:80/cgi-bin/oanda_name.cgi?p=Gryffri%20de%20Ne" TARGET="_blank">http://heraldry.ansteorra.org:80/cgi-bin/oanda_name.cgi?p=Gryffri%20de%20Ne</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > wmarch} Gryffri de Newmarch</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > {<A HREF="http://heraldry.ansteorra.org:80/cgi-bin/glossary.cgi?p=per+fess" TARGET="_blank">http://heraldry.ansteorra.org:80/cgi-bin/glossary.cgi?p=per+fess</A>} Per</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > fess</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > {<A HREF="http://heraldry.ansteorra.org:80/cgi-bin/glossary.cgi?p=embattled" TARGET="_blank">http://heraldry.ansteorra.org:80/cgi-bin/glossary.cgi?p=embattled</A>}</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > embattled {<A HREF="http://heraldry.ansteorra.org:80/cgi-bin/glossary.cgi?p=argent" TARGET="_blank">http://heraldry.ansteorra.org:80/cgi-bin/glossary.cgi?p=argent</A>}</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > argent and {<A HREF="http://heraldry.ansteorra.org:80/cgi-bin/glossary.cgi?p=azure" TARGET="_blank">http://heraldry.ansteorra.org:80/cgi-bin/glossary.cgi?p=azure</A>}</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > azure, a griffin segreant</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > {<A HREF="http://heraldry.ansteorra.org:80/cgi-bin/glossary.cgi?p=sable" TARGET="_blank">http://heraldry.ansteorra.org:80/cgi-bin/glossary.cgi?p=sable</A>} sable and a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > {<A HREF="http://heraldry.ansteorra.org:80/cgi-bin/glossary.cgi?p=cross" TARGET="_blank">http://heraldry.ansteorra.org:80/cgi-bin/glossary.cgi?p=cross</A>} cross</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > moline</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> > {<A HREF="http://heraldry.ansteorra.org:80/cgi-bin/glossary.cgi?p=argent" TARGET="_blank">http://heraldry.ansteorra.org:80/cgi-bin/glossary.cgi?p=argent</A>} argent.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Angle brackets replaced with {...} above so you see what I saw.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>I suggest turning off HTML in outgoing e-mail. You can also use</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>oanda.sca.org as your Ordinary and Armorial source. That site not</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>only has the most current software, but also turns off glossary links</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>by default.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>> >Proposed: Per fess argent and azure, a dragon statant sable and a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >two swords in saltire argent.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >Shield divided in two (per fess) top is silver, bottom is blue. Top</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >charge is a dragon normal stance black in color.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> ></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> >Bottom charge is 2 swords crossed, silver in color.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Thank you for the plain English description. Just to confirm: the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>swords are points upward and they're crossed in a X pattern, and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>the dragon is standing on all four legs?</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>I suggest that heralds go to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2><<A HREF="http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/regs.html" TARGET="_blank">http://www.sca.org/heraldry/laurel/regs.html</A>> and download the Rules</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>for Submission, the CoA Admin Handbook, and the CoA Glossary of Terms.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>The Admin Handbook is not often useful for the herald in the trenches,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>but you can at least read it once to see what sorts of things are</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>covered.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Thank you for expressly saying that the dragon is statant. The</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>College of Arms Glossary of Terms, Table 4, "Conventional</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>S.C.A. Default Postures", says that the default posture of the dragon</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>is segreant. When you're not certain of the default orientation of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>charge, if there even is one, it's always safer to blazon it. Then</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>the worst that can happen is that someone up the chain deletes it for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>brevity. Leave it out by accident and someone could end up</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>conflict-checking the wrong design.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Other than the extra "a" that crept in somehow, I think yours is a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>sufficient blazon. When you have "Per LINE, A and B", it's assumed</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>that A is on one side of the line and B is on the other.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>So</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> Gryffri de Newmarch, Per fess embattled argent and azure, a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> griffin segreant sable and a cross moline argent.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>versus</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> Per fess argent and azure, a dragon statant sable and two swords</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> in saltire argent.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>(I need a bit of "group theory", because you can't count CDs for a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>group until you know what the groups are. Each design has co-equal</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>charges, all in standard arrangements and of equal visual weight.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>So each device has one (1) charge group, which is the primary charge</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>group, containing 3 or 2 charges respectively.)</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>There are three ways to clear conflict:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>- Rules for Submission X.1, Addition of Primary Charges - "Armory does</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> not conflict with any protected armory that adds or removes the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> primary charge group."</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>- RfS X.2: "Simple armory does not conflict with other simple armory</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> if the type of every primary charge is substantially changed."</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>- RfS X.4: "Two pieces of armory will not be considered to conflict if</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> two clear ... differences exist between them."</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>If you can clear the designs by ANY ONE of those methods, they're</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>clear -- because each of them says "does not conflict if" its</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>conditions are met.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>RfS X.2 says</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> For purposes of this rule, simple armory is defined as armory that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> has no more than two types of charge directly on the field and has</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> no overall charges.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Both arms are "simple", so X.2 can be used.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>So the easy way to see that these two designs do not conflict is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> Gryffri: griffin, cross moline</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> New: dragon, sword</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>and see that the types are all substantially different, and they're</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>both simple, so RfS X.2 says they're clear.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>These are some examples of substantial difference from Francois's</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>tenure:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> NOT: a lion vs. a Continental panther</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> yes: a chess rook versus a tower (a period chess rook had two</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> large curled points on top)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> yes: feather versus feather fan</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> NOT: couping an ordinary</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> yes: cross formy (couped, splayed ends) versus bretessed (not</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> couped, embattled)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> NOT: sun versus demi-sun</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> NOT: cross barby (non-period) versus cross formy</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> NOT: cross formy versus Maltese cross</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> yes: tau cross versus regular cross</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> yes: rose versus fleur-de-lys</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> yes: thistle versus shamrock</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> yes: thistle versus rose</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> yes: conquefoil versus dandelion</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> yes: lily versus daisy</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> yes: goutte versus roundel</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> yes: dandelion versus pompernel</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> yes: dandelion plant versus bulrush</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> yes: birds, in many cases</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2> From Elsbeth's tenture:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2> yes: zebras versus stags</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> yes: beacon versus scaling ladder</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> yes: pear versus pinecone</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> yes: triquetra versus pretzel</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> yes: patriarchal cross (couped) versus a plain cross throughout</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> NOT: dragon versus python</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>... Ah ha!</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2> There is a substantial difference between a dragon and a griffin</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> ... [Antonio da Collaureo, 07/01, A-Atlantia]</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Substantial difference is not equivalent to a type CD. All the "NOT"</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>cases above got one CD for type anyway, just not X.2 difference. The</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>example in the RfS: a pine tree (pointy) gets a CD from an oak tree</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>(rounded) but not substantial difference.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>You can see that "substantial difference" is not all that high a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>barrier, when (per the November 2003 LoAR Cover Letter) you get</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>substantial difference between a swan close ("Swan-shaped birds"), a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>crane close ("Crane-shaped birds"), a chicken close ("Poultry-shaped</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>birds"), and a raven close ("'Regular-shaped' birds"). Or different</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>types of crosses. Or different types of bushes. Or zebras versus</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>stags.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>I noted above that any one of the three methods can clear two designs.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>So if you can prove them clear by CDs, you don't have to worry about</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>whether there's substantial difference, or vice versa. So, just as an</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>academic exercize, I'll do the CD count too.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>> >My reading, 1 CD for the different charge in the upper</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Griffin or Dragon / a beast is a beast</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>That happens not to be the case (even leaving aside the express ruling</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>above). Rules for Submission X.4 has the CD-counting rules. RfS</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>X.4.e:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2> e. Type Changes - Significantly changing the type of any group of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> charges placed directly on the field, including strewn charges or</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> charges overall, is one clear difference.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2> Changing the type of at least half of the charges in a group is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> one clear difference. Types of charges considered to be separate</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> in period, for example a lion and an heraldic tyger, will be</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> considered different. A charge not used in period armory will be</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> considered different in type if its shape in normal depiction is</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> significantly different. This means a lion would not be clearly</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> different from a puma. Separate differences may be obtained from</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> changing the types of charges in different charge groups. ...</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Note the two criteria:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>- If two period charges:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> Types of charges considered to be separate in period, for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> example a lion and an heraldic tyger, will be considered</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> different.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>- Else:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> A charge not used in period armory will be considered different</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> in type if its shape in normal depiction is significantly</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> different. This means a lion would not be clearly</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>The rule even has an example of beasts granted a CD for type.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Griffins and dragons are both period charges, and they were distinct</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>in period, so they get a CD.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>> >1 CD for different posture (Rfs. X4h),</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> YES</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>I'm not completely sure. The problem is that, yes, the griffin and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>dragon are in different postures, but "Changing the posture of at</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>least half of the charges in a group is one clear difference.", and</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>the dragon is only one-third of its charge group (dragon, sword,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>sword). If you compare two swords to the cross ... swords can be</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>palewise and fesswise, but those terms don't really apply to a cross.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>I'd have to do a precedents dive first before trying to be definite.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>> > 1 CD for different charge on bottom.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>> Are the swords in an "x" pattern or "t"?</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>He wrote "in saltire", so X pattern.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>> If "x" then yes, if "t" then a cross is a cross.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Swords that happens to be crossed are not a cross.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>And even for crosses, that happens not to be the case. There were a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>number of different types of cross known in period. Some of them</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>weren't even inventions of heraldic tract authors. So some crosses</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>get CDs. Mind you, some don't: the best-known example is cross</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>bottony versus cross crosslet, as it turns out that in period they</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>were artistic variations of each other.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> Cross Conflict Table</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> Compiled by Athenais Bryennissa, Golden Pillar Herald</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>at <<A HREF="http://heralds.artemisia.sca.org/articles/crosstable.html" TARGET="_blank">http://heralds.artemisia.sca.org/articles/crosstable.html</A>> lists</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>precedents on crosses. You can even get substantial (X.2) differences</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>between crosses, as noted in the precedents dive above.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>> > No CD for embattled fess division.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>There is a CD. The CDs for the field are under RfS X.4.a.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2> a. Field Difference - Significantly changing the tinctures,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> direction of partition lines, style of partition lines, or</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> number of pieces in a partition of the field is one clear</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> difference.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>There's even an example of embattling in particular in the rule:</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2> "Per pale azure and Or" has one clear difference from "Per bend</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> azure and Or" and from "Per pale embattled azure and Or."</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>So, in short, for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> Gryffri de Newmarch, Per fess embattled argent and azure, a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> griffin segreant sable and a cross moline argent.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>versus</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> Per fess argent and azure, a dragon statant sable and two swords</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> in saltire argent.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Unredoubted CDs for RfS</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>- X.4.a: the field (per fess embattled versus per fess)</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>- X.4.e: "Type Changes - Significantly changing the type of any group</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> of charges placed directly on the field ... is one clear</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> difference." Griffin+cross moline versus dragon+sword.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>- X.4.f: "Significantly changing the number of charges in any group</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> placed directly on the field ... is one clear difference."</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> griffin + cross moline == 2</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2> dragon + two swords == 3</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>About orientation, X.4.h ... since we already have 3 CDs, I won't</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>worry any more about that.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>I lied. There's one more way to clear a conflict -- letter of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>permission. Gryffri is Pennon Herald, external submissions for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Meridies, so he's easy to find. If there had been a potential</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>conflict, I or someone could have asked him for permission.</FONT>
</P>
<P><FONT SIZE=2>Daniel de Lincolnia</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>-- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Tim McDaniel; Reply-To: tmcd@panix.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>_______________________________________________</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Heralds mailing list</FONT>
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