NR - Re: India was: Insults

[Chandranath]

On Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 12:50:28PM -0500, marc-carlson at utulsa.edu wrote:
> I am sorry if things were being said that were making 
> you uncomfortable.  I know that for me, I have no 
> interest in *offending* anyone when engaged in such a 
> contest.  Admittedly, since I try to limit myself to 
> attacks that were only available to my persona, some of 
> the items that are correct for him are certainly not 
> what we would consider politically correct today 
> (including gender, ethnicity, religion, personal habits, 
>  and so forth).

Having gotten a couple of pieces of mail about this, I should clarify my
intent on commenting -- I wasn't griping, I was just explaining why I was
dipping my foot in after stating I was done. :)  We all keep within certain
styles as to what we do and do not enjoy...

> If I may make a small statement (which I am certain 
> *you* already know, but may be unclear to others -- when 
> you are referring to the Indus civilization, you are not 
> referring to what modern archaologists tend to mean by 
> that phrase (i.e. the Mohenjo-daro and Harappan culture) 
> which died out sometime around the beginning of the 
> Aryan invasions (although debate continues on whether 
> that final collapse was caused by the invasion, or 
> whether the invasion simply exploited the prior collapse 
> of the civilization).  You are referring, if I recall 
> what I know of your persona correctly, to the Mogul 
> emperors.

Pretty much.

As Bear indicated in his post, there are a number of, eh, phases of culture in
this region, usually set off by who had done some conquering recently (note:
with few exceptions, conquering India wasn't done, because there wasn't an
India to conquer, but a number of states that changed hands frequently.
Still, the influences spread beyond the conquered regions).

The original inhabitants -- the groups Diarmaid refers to -- were likely the
progenitors of what are often called the Dravidian peoples (the name given
to their language group -- e.g. Telegu) who are, to oversimplify, the
dark-skinned southern types.  The Aryans -- same guys who invaded, heck,
next to everyone, a light-skinned northern people, came in through Persia
(probably) and basically whupped up on the less militarily (and, eh,
metallurgically) advanced locals.  These -- the Aryans -- are who brought the
Brahman religious system and who created, over time, the caste system.  The
low men on the caste totem pole were, surprise, the Dravidian locals -- I
referred to them (in persona) as the Shudras.

Between that point and my persona's time, lots of people moved in and out.
Chandragupta Maurya set up a pretty fair empire in ... around 500 BC, I want
to say ... and then again Chandra Gupta (there was a name shortage, okay?)
around 500 AD.  The Moslems came around 1000 AD and stayed.

As to the Mogul emperors -- I prefer the spelling Mughal -- a descendant of
Tamerlane (and thus Ghengis Khan, what fun!), a Turk named Babur, built
himself a cushy little kingdom in Afghanistan, then, because he didn't like
the weather (okay, I made that up), came in and took a fair chunk of Hindustan
(read: India), instead.  His grandson, the third Mughal emperor (I mention
this because India has a fun history concerning third emperors, but I
digress), Akbar the Great, really got things cooking and pretty much spread
the Mughal empire to the entire area in question.  This was the 16th century
-- indeed outside of Diarmaid's bailiwick, but of course, right inside
Chandranath's (who is positive it's 1590 C.E., really!) -- and India had its
own Renaissance, due at least in part to Akbar's remarkably liberal notions
concerning religion, art, culture, and so forth (his own grandson, by the way,
was something of an extremist, tightened the screws on the non-Moslems, and
threw away the empire).  

Bonus trivia:

- Akbar's son was Jahangir (or Shah Jahan) who had the Taj Mahal built.
- England made its first direct contact with India in 1583, when the HMS
  Tiger arrived bearing a letter from Queen Elizabeth to Akbar.  Mind you, the
  Portuguese had been directly trading and proselytizing for nearly a century
  already...

Anyway, my point (aside from simply blathering about India, which I am glad to
do):  my persona is, indeed, a Mughal (specifically, a man of Hindu ancestry,
Khastriya caste, of Christian belief, and a former soldier for Akbar, who was
noted for the diversity of his employees), but from an area (Bengal) which
has, at his time, only been part of the empire for some 15 or 20 years.
Consequently, he considers himself Bengalese, although he favors the empire.
He considers his people to be the "original" inhabitants of Indus region,
because he would -- the question at that time was Moslem vs prior inhabitants,
and the question of the Shudras would simply not come up, history having been,
after all, written by the winners (where in this case history is such things
as the epics like the Mahabarata, and the Vedic scriptures and so forth).

In truth, as someone recently stated on an SCA list, conquerer's guilt is a
pretty recent notion. :) I don't think you'll hear my persona talk about the
aboriginal natives of India...

Okay, I'm done. :)

Chandra

-- 
Lord Chandranath, Cadet to Don Timothy
Musician in the King's Players
Deputy Regional Herald, Northern Ansteorra
Rapier Marshal and Captain of the Plumes of the Shire of Mooneschadowe
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