[NR] Northern name--ownership question

[Jennifer Smith]

Yes; prior to about 1985 or so, name registrations were VERY
hand-waved, and sometimes not even noted as separate events on a LoAR
when registered at the same time as a device.  In fact, the last
mention of "region of" that I could find was a return in July 1991:

Avacal, Region of. Device. Quarterly argent and Or, a griffin segreant
maintaining a sword and arrow gules, the sword environed of a laurel
wreath vert.
The name is registered as a herald's title to the kingdom of An Tir.
No paperwork was received for a designator change. While in the past
arms have been registered to the regions of Ansteorra and Calontir, a
number of commentors questioned whether this is a precedent we should
still follow. In a discussion with the Chairman of the Board of
Directors, she recommended against the registration of the names and
armory of regions. Might we suggest that the region send in the
paperwork for a change in status to that of principality?

And that, I suppose, is that.

-Emma


On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 2:53 PM, Kevinkeary <kevinkeary at aol.com> wrote:
> Have the rules changed, then, since the names Calontir and Oertha were first registered? Both were registered to their kingdoms, of course, but both were registered as REGION names to start with.
>
>
> Kevin, being a pesky student
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jennifer Smith <jds at randomgang.com>
> To: Northern Region of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc. <northern at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Cc: Barony of Wiesenfeuer <Wiesenfeuer at yahoogroups.com>; mooneschadowe at yahoogroups.com; Barony of Namron Mailing List <namron at lists.ansteorra.org>; The Barony of Northkeep <northkeep at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Sent: Thu, Sep 30, 2010 2:39 pm
> Subject: Re: [NR] Northern name--ownership question
>
>
> Figured this would come up eventually. :)
> On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 12:48 PM, Cisco Cividanes <engtrktwo at gmail.com> wrote:
>  How would a name for the northern region be registered as regions are
>  not SCA recognized official divisions of a kingdom (as I understand
>  them)?
>
>  Furthermore, who (person or entity) have ownership of the name?
> You're correct in that Corpora only recognizes colleges, strongholds,
> orts, cantons, shires, provinces, baronies, principalities, and
> ingdoms as branches. There is nothing in there about "regions".
> herefore, the College of Arms cannot register a name for a region, as
> hat is not a valid branch.
> (In period, there generally weren't 'regions' either; they were
> uchies, counties, principalities, baronies, and so forth.)
> The Administrative Handbook of the College of Arms states (in summary):
> "II. Registerable Items
> A. Names Which May be Registered to Individuals
>  1. Primary Society Name
>  2. Alternate Society Name(s)
>  3. Holding Name
>  4. Household or Association Names
>  5. Heraldic Titles
> B. Names Which May be Registered to Branches
>  1. Branch Name
>  2. Award or Order Names
>  3. Household or Association Names
>  4. Heraldic Titles
>      a. Kingdom and Principality Heralds
>      b. Other Branch titles
>      c. Staff titles"
> Theoretically a name could be registered as a "Household or
> ssociation Name" for an individual, but the name would then be owned
> y that individual. I suspect this is not desired.
> Turning now to II.B, names that may be registered to a local branch or
> o the kingdom, any such name would be owned by that local branch or
> he kingdom. Again, I suspect ownership would be best desired at the
> ingdom level, instead of by any one particular group.
> I've already stated why a region name could not be registered under
> I.B.1 "Branch Name". It makes no sense under II.B.2 "Award or Order
> ames".  Which leaves us with II.B.3 "Household or Association Names"
> nd II.B.4.c "Heraldic Titles - Staff Titles" (the "catch-all" group
> or kingdom heraldic titles).
> What is a Household or Association?   The handbook elaborates a bit
> ore: The name of an organized group of people other than a branch or
> rder. Associations include households, guilds, academies, tournament
> ompanies, and other similar groups. Furthermore, the Rules for
> ubmission III.2.b.iv states "Household names must follow the patterns
> f period names of organized groups of people. Possible models include
> cottish clans (Clan Domhnaill ), ruling dynasties ( House of Anjou ),
> rofessional guilds ( Bakers Guild of Augsburg , Worshipful Company of
> oopers ), military units ( The White Company ), and inns ( House of
> he White Hart )."
> What is a Heraldic Title? Titles for heralds, obviously. The Rules for
> ubmission III.2.b.iii states "Heraldic titles must follow the
> atterns of period heraldic titles. These are generally drawn from
> urnames ( Chandos Herald, Percy Herald), place-names ( Windsor
> erald, Calais Pursuivant, Sicily Herald), names of heraldic charges (
> rosslet Herald, Estoile Volant Pursuivant, Noir Lyon Pursuivant),
> ames of orders of chivalry ( Garter King of Arms), and mottos ( Ich
> ien Pursuivant, Esperance Pursuivant)."
> The Middle Kingdom, as has been brought up before, has reserved the
> ames of its regions by registering them as heraldic titles.  I
> resume that they have regional heralds, as do we, that use those
> itles. (For reference, we have registered Nordsteorra Herald
> northern), Eclipse Herald (central), Orbis Herald (southern), and
> olstice Herald (coastal).  We still have Equinox Herald (late
> amented western) currently not in use.) Their subsequent use of the
> ames as names for the regions is a sort of backwards thing: as noted
> bove, one of the patterns for heraldic titles is those drawn from
> lace-names. Cute, but not necessarily very period.
> It is *plausible* that the kingdom would consent to register a
> ousehold/association name or a heraldic title name for a region's
> se. This message is by no means meant to indicate that such a
> egistration attempt would in fact be agreed to by kingdom. That's
> nother matter for another day.
> Now, as for the actual construction, aside from the examples given
> bove, I would recommend to further limit name possibilities to ones
> hat are decidedly of the "place-name" variety, as opposed to heraldic
> harges, virtues, and the like. The reason for this is IF, in some
> ar-flung future, the region wanted to become a principality, the name
> ould only be transferred to the principality if it were a valid
> lace-name.
> As a practical example of this, the household name "Company of
> ellsgate" was registered to an individual, with "Hellsgate"
> ocumented as a place-name. The name was then transferred to the
> roup, and the designator changed from "Company of" to "Stronghold
> f", and registered as the name of the branch. This was allowed only
> ecause "Hellsgate" was a valid place-name; if it had been "Company of
> he Red Flame", unless "Red Flame" could be documented as a plausible
> ame for a settlement (which I strongly doubt), it would not have been
> sable as the name of the branch.
> I hope this very long message has been useful and not too difficult to
> nderstand. I would be more than happy to answer any further questions
> egarding registerability.
> -Emma
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