PE - Spoked wheel design .... was Ropes or not to rope!

Wed Oct 4 14:06:54 PDT 2000

Dear Terafan,

You have done your research well. However, I think it best that we agree to disagree on the information supporting an internal structure for tents.

Looking at your long list of reference I see no mention of any extant examples but only artist interpretation of tents, which in itself is open to interpretation.

I do believe such artistic representation can be used to infer tent design features but cannot be used to conclusively prove one.

BTW, some friends of mine are on their way to the re-enactment of Hastings (1066 A.D.) via Poland, Russian, Ukraine, and Scandinavia (luck buggers). While in Warsaw they came across an extant Turkish tent in one of the Museums, I will be getting pictures and details when they get back. Also there are numerous extant tents in the Military Museum and the Museum next to the Hippodrome in Istanbul (I have the photo somewhere). Sorry none of these have internal structures.

---
Bye for now,

Sven
(Stephen Francis Wyley)
Fortifications (Dictionary of Military Architecture, etc).
http://www.angelfire.com/wy/svenskildbiter/index.html
Archery, Arms, Armour, Chests, Tents, Trebuchets,
Vikings, Woodwork.
http://www.geocities.com/svenskildbiter/index.html
Arrow Fletching, Turbow Longbows & Yoretymes Emporium of History
http://svenskildbiter.webjump.com/index2.html

On Wed, 4 Oct 2000 16:10:57    Barclay, Peter C. MAJ wrote:
>Greetings from Master Terafan,
>
>	Lady Marguerite has unknowingly punched one of my hot buttons.... IF
>you don't want to read a long note about tents, then stop now and delete it.
>
>
>First off, I have no problem with ropes.  My issue is not about ropes, and I
>have those good pictures about the "high wind wire" attachment points on the
>roof caps of the tent in Basel.   Just because I don't use ropes on my
>pavilino doesn't mean they are not a good idea.  I simply have stakes that
>go 14 or so inches into the ground, and I have withstood some very heavy
>winds and rains without a problem. 
>
>My real issue is Marguerite's comment that spoke wheel design tents are not
>period:  
>
>>The spoke wheel design is not yet proven to be documentable. If any one has
>documentation please let us know where it is >we have been trying to get
>real documentation for a long time but you have to see the actual frame.
>They look great they >are very nice looking but they are not period. 
>
>
>While she is correct in that we currently have no clear, positive proof of
>the *design* of the inner structure, we have obvious clear proof (by
>inference) of some sort of interior structure.   Now, why do I say this?
>
>1) Many period paintings have NO ropes on the tents, even by people who put
>ropes on the tents in many of their paintings.  Look at the paintings of
>Jean Froissart, Chronicles in the Bibliothhque Nationale de France,
>http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/aaccueil.htm.  Many of these have ropes and
>many do not.  In particular, look at the following images:
>- Charles of Blois, duke of Brittany, besieging Hennebont (1342). (BNF, FR
>2643) 
>- Charles of Blois, duke of Brittany, is taken prisoner at the Battle of La
>Roche-Derrien (1347). (BNF, FR 2643) 
>- Edward III of England besieging Reims (1359/60) (BNF, FR 2643) 
>- Battle of Cassel: the French combat the Flemish (1328). (BNF, FR 2643) 
>
>In the Hennebont painting, the red tent in the background appears to ropes
>(look at the right most crow's foot, it appears to be going off the edge),
>yet the white tent seems to definitely NOT have ropes.  How would it have
>this shape without some interior structure?
>
>I am interested in the explanation for the tent that is collapsing (in La
>Roche-Derrien painting).  How could it possibly be collapsing as indicated
>and still retain that conical top if it did not have *some kind* of interior
>structure?
>
>In the Edward III picture, there is no way the tent in the foreground could
>have the shape and structure using only the ropes and angles indicated.  
>
>The front tent in the Cassel picture is similar.  We can see "into" the tent
>but there are no perimeter poles, and the ropes indicated would not give it
>that shape and structure.
>
>
>2) I have put some other pictures on the web, including one from the Cloth
>of the Field of Gold, a German woodcut from 1520, a drawing from around
>1360, and a 14th century French painting from the Bibliotheque Nationale in
>Paris.  http://www.greydragon.org/pavilions/othertents.html
>
>In the Cloth of Gold, there are ropes and they clearly do not support the
>structure.  You can see the centerpole and stuff inside, but clearly no
>perimeter poles.  How does the tent keep this shape?
>
>In the German woodcut, some of the tents have ropes, but others don't.  How
>do they keep their shape?
>
>In the 1360 tournament camp, NONE of those tents show ropes...
>
>The French painting again shows a lot of shape and structure but no
>indications of perimeter poles or ropes.
>
>
>3) Look at the BNF again, specifically the "Genoese besieging Mahdia, in
>Tunisia (1390) (BNF, FR 2646)" at
>http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i3_0080.jpg  and look at the
>tents.  NONE of them show ropes nor any indication of perimeter poles, yet
>they maintain their shape and structure somehow.   Similar is the "Massacre
>of the Christian prisoners taken an the Battle of Nicopol, in the presence
>of the Ottoman Sultan Bayezid I. (BNF, FR 2646)" at
>http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i3_0095.jpg.  
>
>
>4) Look at the Dream of Constatine, by Piero della Francesco, c. 1455, and
>see the center pole, without any perimeter poles or ropes.  
>
>
>5) Look at the Tent of Hope, in King Renee's Book of Love, 1457.  You can
>clearly see ropes, and it may be that these truly do hold the tent out at
>the correct shape and angle, however it also appears that you can see
>through to the inside with no appearance of perimeter poles.  However, other
>round tents in King Renee's book, like the round tent in the "Honour's Tent"
>painting could not have that shape with just the ropes.  
>
>
>While I cannot prove what DESIGN the interior structure used, you will be
>hard pressed to prove to me that they did not have *some sort* of interior
>structure.  It may have been a wagon wheel, as some have suggested, but then
>a wagon wheel is really just a hub and spoke design.  I don't believe that
>wagon wheels were routinely used, because there were some awfully large
>tents, and I have seen no evidence for wheels that were 12 feet (or even 8
>feet) in diameter like the hubs and spokes in my two pavilinos...
>
>(I like to believe that) I am open to differing opinions and willing to
>examine the evidence presented and critically think through the arguments
>made that hub and spoke tents are "not period".  Please share them with me.
>
>
>
>respectfully, 
>
>                     Terafan
>
>Master Rhys Terafan Greydragon           barclayp at eucom.mil
>University Chancellor, brewer and probably other things I can't remember...
>Seneschal, Incipient Shire of Blauwasser
>
> 
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