[Ravensfort] My reply to your letter....was....Words from...

[Kief av Kiersted]

To Mister LeJeune...and any others that may read these words.

I will strive to answer your accusations, charges, and abuse in a kinder way
than you have served everyone else.

Although I will note, up front, that you side stepped all my questions and
challenges yet again. Typical for a person ill prepared for a lively debate.

You wrote the following letter:

**********************
>From: AMH/DBLJ <orthart at earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: ravensfort at ansteorra.org
>To: ravensfort at ansteorra.org
>Subject: Re: [Ravensfort] Fwd: Words from the Crown
>Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 12:00:18 -0500
>
>I took a few days off from reading this list to decide if I shall take Kief
>up
>on his challenge to make what I know public.  At this point I feel it will
>not
>be constructive to damn Nickie any more than I already have.
**********************

An attempt to belittle an opponent without resorting to any facts. All you
have done is make yourself look petty.

**********************
>  The Crown has let
>us know that their minds are closed to any input on the subject.  Their
>minds
>are made up and they do not want to be confused with insignificant things
>like
>facts.
**********************

The time to present any facts was *before* the decision was made public.
You, like everyone else, had almost two weeks to present your statements and
arguments to Their Highnesses. Did you actually do so or did you just wait
silent? If you had any significent input, or a provable factual argument,
why did you not present it *prior* to the selection announcement?

**************************
>It is my strong belief that questionable activities surround the
>selection of the new baron and baroness.
**************************

Again, you use emotional statements but do not state facts nor do you
present any evidence to back up your claims of "questionable activities".

**************************
>I do not fear the "peril" I put
>myself in by stating this as the Crown has already done the worst thing
>that
>they can do to me in their appointment.
**************************

The "peril" I referred to was your possible banishment for inflammatory and
derogatory statements concerning the Crown.

Once more you are using sheer emotional content to place yourself in a
"victim's" posture. It certainly does not become you.

**************************
>If you are interested in hearing what
>I know ask me one on one or contact Mistress Clarissa and ask what was said
>in
>the letter that I will be sending to her in the near future stating my
>grievances.
*************************

Once more you have "copped out". Why do you refuse to state your grievances
in a public forum? Are you afraid that if they are published "in the clear
light of day" that folks will actually have a chance to refute them?

Since you will not publish them publically, I will ask you to send them
privately. I state to you that I will *not* publish them to the list nor
give my copy to anyone to publish. But I will reserve the right to answer
your charges and allegations.

+++++++++
Here ends the first portion of your letter.

Now begins the ugly part:
+++++++++

***********************
>Now a few personal answers:
>
>Lady Gwynafwy,  I am surprised that a smart gal like you would suggest such
>a
>thing.  My Mama taught me that "Only people that aren't intelligent enough
>to
>work out thing in other ways resort to violence."
***********************

For a sensitive modern progressive man this statement sure smacks of a deep
rooted sexist attitude.

************************
>Tuatha De Ben Mor Tir,  Who ever the hell you are and where ever the hell
>you're from you are a complete stranger to me.  Before you presume to
>lecture
>me on how I should behave you should at least meet me.  That is something I
>am
>greatly looking forward to.  Now go wipe that brown stuff off your nose.
*************************

Such a nice way to treat a newcomer. Given your lecture of *him* you might
*not* want to be "...greatly looking forward..." to meeting this gentleman.

Now we come to *my* part of your letter. I am *not* amused.

**************************
>Sir Baron Kief, you want to know why dissatisfied members of the populace
>will
>not step forward and state their mind.  It's because you are a damnable
>bully.
*************************

I note the adroit use of an "ad hominem" attack.

*************************
>Anyone that does not agree with you is treated to one of your rants.  You
>put
>down, insult and demean to draw attention away from the point trying to be
>made.
*************************

I will take these lines to read that you cannot stand to be out debated nor
out argued.

*************************
>You state things as fact that are total rationalized fabrications from
>your mind.  You hope that by stating them with force they will pass
>unquestioned.
*************************

Again you have publically called me a liar. Contrary to *your* arguments I
use *logic* rather than emotion. Although I will say that I can and did get
loud at times when we argued in the past...at the time I thought that *our*
use of emotion was more than countered by our friendship. I can see now that
I was mistaken.

***************************
You twist and ignore and have a unique way of adding 2+2 to get
>22.  It is your style.
***************************

Yes, I use my own methods to get my point across. I thought that original
thinking and the use of logic as well as using the facts was the preferred
methodology of winning debates.

Your style seems to consist of emotional buzzwords, vague "conspiracy
theories", and hearsay.

***************************
>You are also blinded by the lower intestines of the
>Crown.
***************************

Why does it seem that you are anally fixated?

***************************
When I first met you people talked about how fair you were in solving
>disputes.  Now people talk about how short you fuse is and your boarder
>line
>abusive behavior to anyone that displeases you, most notably your mistress,
>her
>son and me.
***************************

I think it interesting that no one approaches me with these concerns.

I am more than willing to admit that I have had problems with anger
management in the past. As well, I am more than willing nowadays to talk
over my actions with anyone...if they but care to approach me about any
matters of mutual concern. My "fuse" as you put it, is miles longer than it
was some years ago.

Indeed, Doug, you are walking a fine line here. My *borderline* abusive
behavior...Lorraine, Kris, and I had a good laugh over this. Jane even had a
few chuckles as well. I do not have to resort to such a cheap shot. You know
*your* own circumstance and *your* own past behavior. Perhaps you should
look a tad more closely at your own life...

**********************
>Professionals can probably set you up with some kind of a chill
>pill.
**********************

Actually I have gone to professionals in regards to several issues in the
course of my life. Anger management was at the top of the list. I certainly
do not have to resort to drugs to maintain *my* "cool"...Doug.

***********************
>As far as your honor goes, you use it to put on a good show in court and
>on the list field but set it aside when angry or if it will serve your
>purpose.
***********************

To be blunt here, Doug, I find that you calling me dishonorable is like an
ocean calling a pail of water "wet". If I hold my actions up to yours...I
will seem saintly...and the gods know I made my share of mistakes. Are you
willing to own up to all of yours?

***********************
>Am I being personal ??  I guess what goes around comes around.  Can
>you take what you dish out ??
***********************

Yes, you were quite personal.

Correct again, what goes around comes around.

Certainly, I'm actually smiling now as I write this letter...for I know for
a fact that you can't "cut the mustard". What you can do is "cut and run".

************************
>In closing I'd like to point out that at no time did I state that I wanted
>to
>head a petition drive or start a break away group.  I would however support
>both efforts.
*************************

That's true, you did neither of those things.

However, you did post the following, to wit:

AMH/DBLJ ravensfort at ansteorra.org
Sun, 08 Jul 2001 23:42:48 -0500
"...If we find that there is little to no support we can start a letter
writing campaign and even take this to the mundane courts to insure that
Corpora is followed..."

I would like you to take a close look at what you threatened to subject all
of us to.

First a "letter writing campaign"...I would hazard a guess that they would
not have been "love letters"... To whom would you have written? The
successful candidates, Niklas and Kezia? The Regional Seneschal? The Kingdom
Seneschal? The (now) Crown? The Ansteorran Ombudsman? The Board of
Directors? This was just another ploy to sow confusion, doubt, and chaos.

Then there was that nice threat to "...take this to the mundane courts..."
and you say *I* don't play nice...

***************************
>I have been a member of this Barony since it's inception and
>feel that I have earned the right to state my mind.
***************************

Correct, you have been a member of this Barony since it's inception.

Correct again, you most certainly do have the right to state your mind.

The shame here is that you never stated any facts. You proclaimed only
hearsay, inneundo, allegations, emotional buzzwords, and not-so-veiled
threats.

************************
>In my experience the
>Barony has never seen a darker hour.  Rather than fight what has been
>forced
>upon us I have decided to let the cancer run it's course.  I plan on
>attending
>the "stepping down" of Saint David and Chrystal, however, as of coronation
>just
>past I will be taking and extended vacation from Raven's Fort activities.
***********************

You know, I've often told folks in the Society a theory when I heard the
words "I'm quiting because of so-and-so...!" or "Until they're gone I'm
outta here...!". The theory kind of goes like this.

If you think you're right then stay and work for what you feel is the
correct course of action. Time will tell just who the correct party was.
But, if you leave, then..."They"...win...automatically. People soon forget
what the "issues" were...they just notice who's left to do the work, to set
the policies, to greet the newcommers, to *tell the story*.

So, be the ostrich, bury your head in the sand somewhere. Years from now
we'll wonder whatever became of ol' Marius...

However, *if* you are serious about taking an "extended vacation" from
"Raven's Fort activities" you no longer have need of a key to access the
site. Please leave it with Zorcon and Gwynn in the *very* near future, or
give it to Master Robert on Monday or Tuesday (23 / 24 July).

You are, of course, invited to attend any activities at the Stones site as
someone's guest. But, as of the writing of this letter, you no longer have
any special privileges or unsupervised access.


*********************
>As
>of the sending of this email I will automatically delete all post from this
>Raven's Fort board as well as forwards from said board.
*********************

"Ignorance is bliss..."

*********************
I want thank the
>members of the populace for the very good times that I have enjoyed in the
>past.  I look forward to working with you at some point in the future.
**********************

I actually want to thank you for all the hard work you've done over the
years. The Barony would be much less than it is had you not been active
here.

However, given the grave insults that you've publically heaped on myself and
my family, I fear I cannot wish you well.

********************
>Pax,
>Marius
********************


With sadness, great regret, and loss of respect...


Kief av Kiersted -- Lee Cockerham
"Better the Hammer than the nail..."



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