[Ravensfort] Re: We were requested to forward this

[Mike Dowdy]

To the good folk and family of Ravensfort

I have watched for a good while, I have read for a good while, now I
Vladimier Thorvalson shall speak my mind.

Marius,

I think you are a good man. I also think that you are full of compaction for
what you believe is the right thing to do. This is the mark of a good man. I
believe that you said your piece, gave your opinion, and advice on the
matter that you felt were important. I think though you need to back up and
rethink your course. I would like to see you continue on with your work at
the site. I would like for you to be the man who make that part of
Ravensfort shine as it has for many a year. I would like for you to make
that area a even great area than it already is. From me to you, well done in
your efforts on the site.

Now then, the Crown has made their choice, the polling is done, the new
leadership has been chosen. I would like for you to as would I in your
position to befriend the new leadership. That to me is a responsibility to
help further the growth, the development and the creativity of a group. You
Marius are a creative man. You Marius are a intelligent man.
You Marius can rise above the past few weeks and be the man that I hope that
you are. Every group has problems, every organization has its issues. I know
that you will step up and look beyond to see the great work of the garden
still left to you.


Kief,

My friend when I was shy a few, my mentor on the field, the man who tought
me to be kind. I hope that you will find it in your heart and in your code
to forgive or understand the actions of a person that believes so strongly
in something that he is willing to sacrifice all to make his point known. I
know that Marius hasn't gone about things in the best way that he could. I
still think he is a good man defending his beliefs. I don't know the why,
the what, or the the how. All I do know is that anyone who fights this hard
for something must believe it.

I sincerely hope that the parties will and can find some ground to walk on,
It upsets me to see such people that I respect fight so. I will say is
closing that both of the antagonists are in my option good people. I do not
offer my thoughts lightly. This is my option

Vladimier Thorvalson







----- Original Message -----
From: "AMH/DBLJ" <orthart at earthlink.net>
To: "charlotte epps" <lizardkeep at hotmail.com>
Cc: <sirkief at hotmail.com>; <env_drh at shsu.edu>;
<chrystal_dragon at hotmail.com>; "Electric Raven's Land"
<Ravensfort at ansteorra.org>; <niklas at wt.net>
Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2001 9:53 PM
Subject: [Ravensfort] Re: We were requested to forward this


This evening I read the first part (far enough to confirm rumors ) of an
email from
Kief that was forwarded to me.  It stated that I had fallen out of his grace
and
that I have lost my site privileges and must return my key.  Childish, but
not a
surprise.

Through the years I was told over and over again by Kief that as long as I
keep
working and improving the site that he had no problem with me coming out
when ever
I could.  At the spring event I was complimented by several individuals that
the
Rose Garden and Tavern had never looked better.  They were right.  I am
proud to
say that I had spent a great deal of time, money and effort on the site.  No
one
can deny that.

Regardless of how hard I have worked, now that Kief is upset with me I am
restricted from the site.  He is abusing his position as land agent to
extract a
personal revenge.  This is the exact type of dishonorable actions that I
have been
talking about in my recent emails.

If Kief persist on this self serving course of action I will have no choice
but to
officially request for the second time during the rein of Saint David and
Chrystal
that a new land agent be appointed to represent the SCA.  One that will
hopefully
be above lies, tantrums, bullying and extortion.  Saint David knows the land
owners
well and would be an excellent choice.

Have a nice day,
Marius



charlotte epps wrote:

> We are most disapointed with both of you.  This is an argument between the
> two of you, please do not put us in the middle of this.
> Please respect the friendships we have cultured with both of you
throughout
> all these years.
> Zorcon & Gwynn
>
> >From: "Kief av Kiersted" <sirkief at hotmail.com>
> >To: lizardkeep at hotmail.com
> >CC: env_drh at shsu.edu, chrystal_dragon at hotmail.com, niklas at wt.net
> >Subject: Re: [Ravensfort] emails
> >Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 03:29:35 -0500
> >
> >Heilsa to Their Excellencies Don Zorcon and Gwynn, Their Excellencies of
> >Raven's Fort David and Chrystal, the seneschal of Raven's Fort Niklas
> >Vasilevich, and any others that read these words...
> >
> >Given that Their Excellencies of Raven's Fort have called for peace on
the
> >list I will not respond to Mr. LeJeune's letter in the manner it
> >deserves...
> >
> >Mr. LeJeune posted the letter copied below. Since he has done what he has
> >done......... Could you forward him a copy of my reply to his letter
> >concerning a number of matters and people in Raven's Fort/SCA? There is
> >information in that letter that he needs to read and respond to *ASAP*.
In
> >fact he *cannot* ignore it. As well...I request that if my letter is
> >forwarded that it be done so *in it's entirety* no editing whatsoever.
> >Please inform me if or when this is done...or if it will not be done. I
do
> >need to know.
> >
> >I have no desire to talk to Mr. LeJeune, considering there would be no
> >record of what was said. I cannot trust, at this point in time, anything
> >that he would say, or do, nor how he would twist any conversation I had
> >with him.
> >
> >Since Mr. LeJeune has decided to delete/ignore my letter the following
now
> >applies:
> >
> >If my letter is not forwarded, please pass on to Mr. LeJeune that his
> >special site privileges have ended. The key to the site that he possesses
> >must be surrendered immediately.
> >
> >If Mr. LeJeune does not comply I will seek other remedies.
> >
> >Thank you very much for your time and consideration in this matter.
> >
> >
> >Wæs ?u Hæl in Tro? and Fri?...!
> >Kief "the damnable bully" av Kiersted -- Lee Cockerham (site agent)
> >"Better the Hammer than the nail..."
> >
> >
> >****************************
> >>From: AMH/DBLJ <orthart at earthlink.net>
> >>Reply-To: ravensfort at ansteorra.org
> >>To: <Ravensfort at ansteorra.org>
> >>Subject: [Ravensfort] emails
> >>Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2001 18:48:09 -0500
> >>
> >>My apologies for posting again.  Several people have emailed me
> >>privately.  Any email that appeared to be sca related was deleted
> >>without being read.  If you really, really need to get in touch with me
> >>you can try sending to Gwynn and Zorc and if they feel like it is
> >>something I would want to know they can forward on as I still read
> >>anything they send... or you can pick up the phone.
> >>
> >>Pax,
> >>Marius
> >********************
> >
>
> "" We assume that the following is the letter that Kief mentioned.  It was
> retreived from the Raven's Fort on-line discussion list archives.  "" Zork
&
> Gwynn
>
> [Ravensfort] My reply to your letter....was....Words from...
> Kief av Kiersted ravensfort at ansteorra.org
> Mon, 23 Jul 2001 04:30:03 -0500
>
> Previous message: [Re: [Ravensfort] Defender
> Next message: [Ravensfort] Head Table Update
> Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
>
> To Mister LeJeune...and any others that may read these words.
>
> I will strive to answer your accusations, charges, and abuse in a kinder
way
> than you have served everyone else.
>
> Although I will note, up front, that you side stepped all my questions and
> challenges yet again. Typical for a person ill prepared for a lively
debate.
>
> You wrote the following letter:
>
> **********************
> >From: AMH/DBLJ <orthart at earthlink.net>
> >Reply-To: ravensfort at ansteorra.org
> >To: ravensfort at ansteorra.org
> >Subject: Re: [Ravensfort] Fwd: Words from the Crown
> >Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 12:00:18 -0500
> >
> >I took a few days off from reading this list to decide if I shall take
Kief
> >up
> >on his challenge to make what I know public.  At this point I feel it
will
> >not
> >be constructive to damn Nickie any more than I already have.
> **********************
>
> An attempt to belittle an opponent without resorting to any facts. All you
> have done is make yourself look petty.
>
> **********************
> >  The Crown has let
> >us know that their minds are closed to any input on the subject.  Their
> >minds
> >are made up and they do not want to be confused with insignificant things
> >like
> >facts.
> **********************
>
> The time to present any facts was *before* the decision was made public.
> You, like everyone else, had almost two weeks to present your statements
and
> arguments to Their Highnesses. Did you actually do so or did you just wait
> silent? If you had any significent input, or a provable factual argument,
> why did you not present it *prior* to the selection announcement?
>
> **************************
> >It is my strong belief that questionable activities surround the
> >selection of the new baron and baroness.
> **************************
>
> Again, you use emotional statements but do not state facts nor do you
> present any evidence to back up your claims of "questionable activities".
>
> **************************
> >I do not fear the "peril" I put
> >myself in by stating this as the Crown has already done the worst thing
> >that
> >they can do to me in their appointment.
> **************************
>
> The "peril" I referred to was your possible banishment for inflammatory
and
> derogatory statements concerning the Crown.
>
> Once more you are using sheer emotional content to place yourself in a
> "victim's" posture. It certainly does not become you.
>
> **************************
> >If you are interested in hearing what
> >I know ask me one on one or contact Mistress Clarissa and ask what was
said
> >in
> >the letter that I will be sending to her in the near future stating my
> >grievances.
> *************************
>
> Once more you have "copped out". Why do you refuse to state your
grievances
> in a public forum? Are you afraid that if they are published "in the clear
> light of day" that folks will actually have a chance to refute them?
>
> Since you will not publish them publically, I will ask you to send them
> privately. I state to you that I will *not* publish them to the list nor
> give my copy to anyone to publish. But I will reserve the right to answer
> your charges and allegations.
>
> +++++++++
> Here ends the first portion of your letter.
>
> Now begins the ugly part:
> +++++++++
>
> ***********************
> >Now a few personal answers:
> >
> >Lady Gwynafwy,  I am surprised that a smart gal like you would suggest
such
> >a
> >thing.  My Mama taught me that "Only people that aren't intelligent
enough
> >to
> >work out thing in other ways resort to violence."
> ***********************
>
> For a sensitive modern progressive man this statement sure smacks of a
deep
> rooted sexist attitude.
>
> ************************
> >Tuatha De Ben Mor Tir,  Who ever the hell you are and where ever the hell
> >you're from you are a complete stranger to me.  Before you presume to
> >lecture
> >me on how I should behave you should at least meet me.  That is something
I
> >am
> >greatly looking forward to.  Now go wipe that brown stuff off your nose.
> *************************
>
> Such a nice way to treat a newcomer. Given your lecture of *him* you might
> *not* want to be "...greatly looking forward..." to meeting this
gentleman.
>
> Now we come to *my* part of your letter. I am *not* amused.
>
> **************************
> >Sir Baron Kief, you want to know why dissatisfied members of the populace
> >will
> >not step forward and state their mind.  It's because you are a damnable
> >bully.
> *************************
>
> I note the adroit use of an "ad hominem" attack.
>
> *************************
> >Anyone that does not agree with you is treated to one of your rants.  You
> >put
> >down, insult and demean to draw attention away from the point trying to
be
> >made.
> *************************
>
> I will take these lines to read that you cannot stand to be out debated
nor
> out argued.
>
> *************************
> >You state things as fact that are total rationalized fabrications from
> >your mind.  You hope that by stating them with force they will pass
> >unquestioned.
> *************************
>
> Again you have publically called me a liar. Contrary to *your* arguments I
> use *logic* rather than emotion. Although I will say that I can and did
get
> loud at times when we argued in the past...at the time I thought that
*our*
> use of emotion was more than countered by our friendship. I can see now
that
> I was mistaken.
>
> ***************************
> You twist and ignore and have a unique way of adding 2+2 to get
> >22.  It is your style.
> ***************************
>
> Yes, I use my own methods to get my point across. I thought that original
> thinking and the use of logic as well as using the facts was the preferred
> methodology of winning debates.
>
> Your style seems to consist of emotional buzzwords, vague "conspiracy
> theories", and hearsay.
>
> ***************************
> >You are also blinded by the lower intestines of the
> >Crown.
> ***************************
>
> Why does it seem that you are anally fixated?
>
> ***************************
> When I first met you people talked about how fair you were in solving
> >disputes.  Now people talk about how short you fuse is and your boarder
> >line
> >abusive behavior to anyone that displeases you, most notably your
mistress,
> >her
> >son and me.
> ***************************
>
> I think it interesting that no one approaches me with these concerns.
>
> I am more than willing to admit that I have had problems with anger
> management in the past. As well, I am more than willing nowadays to talk
> over my actions with anyone...if they but care to approach me about any
> matters of mutual concern. My "fuse" as you put it, is miles longer than
it
> was some years ago.
>
> Indeed, Doug, you are walking a fine line here. My *borderline* abusive
> behavior...Lorraine, Kris, and I had a good laugh over this. Jane even had
a
> few chuckles as well. I do not have to resort to such a cheap shot. You
know
> *your* own circumstance and *your* own past behavior. Perhaps you should
> look a tad more closely at your own life...
>
> **********************
> >Professionals can probably set you up with some kind of a chill
> >pill.
> **********************
>
> Actually I have gone to professionals in regards to several issues in the
> course of my life. Anger management was at the top of the list. I
certainly
> do not have to resort to drugs to maintain *my* "cool"...Doug.
>
> ***********************
> >As far as your honor goes, you use it to put on a good show in court and
> >on the list field but set it aside when angry or if it will serve your
> >purpose.
> ***********************
>
> To be blunt here, Doug, I find that you calling me dishonorable is like an
> ocean calling a pail of water "wet". If I hold my actions up to yours...I
> will seem saintly...and the gods know I made my share of mistakes. Are you
> willing to own up to all of yours?
>
> ***********************
> >Am I being personal ??  I guess what goes around comes around.  Can
> >you take what you dish out ??
> ***********************
>
> Yes, you were quite personal.
>
> Correct again, what goes around comes around.
>
> Certainly, I'm actually smiling now as I write this letter...for I know
for
> a fact that you can't "cut the mustard". What you can do is "cut and run".
>
> ************************
> >In closing I'd like to point out that at no time did I state that I
wanted
> >to
> >head a petition drive or start a break away group.  I would however
support
> >both efforts.
> *************************
>
> That's true, you did neither of those things.
>
> However, you did post the following, to wit:
>
> AMH/DBLJ ravensfort at ansteorra.org
> Sun, 08 Jul 2001 23:42:48 -0500
> "...If we find that there is little to no support we can start a letter
> writing campaign and even take this to the mundane courts to insure that
> Corpora is followed..."
>
> I would like you to take a close look at what you threatened to subject
all
> of us to.
>
> First a "letter writing campaign"...I would hazard a guess that they would
> not have been "love letters"... To whom would you have written? The
> successful candidates, Niklas and Kezia? The Regional Seneschal? The
Kingdom
> Seneschal? The (now) Crown? The Ansteorran Ombudsman? The Board of
> Directors? This was just another ploy to sow confusion, doubt, and chaos.
>
> Then there was that nice threat to "...take this to the mundane courts..."
> and you say *I* don't play nice...
>
> ***************************
> >I have been a member of this Barony since it's inception and
> >feel that I have earned the right to state my mind.
> ***************************
>
> Correct, you have been a member of this Barony since it's inception.
>
> Correct again, you most certainly do have the right to state your mind.
>
> The shame here is that you never stated any facts. You proclaimed only
> hearsay, inneundo, allegations, emotional buzzwords, and not-so-veiled
> threats.
>
> ************************
> >In my experience the
> >Barony has never seen a darker hour.  Rather than fight what has been
> >forced
> >upon us I have decided to let the cancer run it's course.  I plan on
> >attending
> >the "stepping down" of Saint David and Chrystal, however, as of
coronation
> >just
> >past I will be taking and extended vacation from Raven's Fort activities.
> ***********************
>
> You know, I've often told folks in the Society a theory when I heard the
> words "I'm quiting because of so-and-so...!" or "Until they're gone I'm
> outta here...!". The theory kind of goes like this.
>
> If you think you're right then stay and work for what you feel is the
> correct course of action. Time will tell just who the correct party was.
> But, if you leave, then..."They"...win...automatically. People soon forget
> what the "issues" were...they just notice who's left to do the work, to
set
> the policies, to greet the newcommers, to *tell the story*.
>
> So, be the ostrich, bury your head in the sand somewhere. Years from now
> we'll wonder whatever became of ol' Marius...
>
> However, *if* you are serious about taking an "extended vacation" from
> "Raven's Fort activities" you no longer have need of a key to access the
> site. Please leave it with Zorcon and Gwynn in the *very* near future, or
> give it to Master Robert on Monday or Tuesday (23 / 24 July).
>
> You are, of course, invited to attend any activities at the Stones site as
> someone's guest. But, as of the writing of this letter, you no longer have
> any special privileges or unsupervised access.
>
> *********************
> >As
> >of the sending of this email I will automatically delete all post from
this
> >Raven's Fort board as well as forwards from said board.
> *********************
>
> "Ignorance is bliss..."
>
> *********************
> I want thank the
> >members of the populace for the very good times that I have enjoyed in
the
> >past.  I look forward to working with you at some point in the future.
> **********************
>
> I actually want to thank you for all the hard work you've done over the
> years. The Barony would be much less than it is had you not been active
> here.
>
> However, given the grave insults that you've publically heaped on myself
and
> my family, I fear I cannot wish you well.
>
> ********************
> >Pax,
> >Marius
> ********************
>
> With sadness, great regret, and loss of respect...
>
> Kief av Kiersted -- Lee Cockerham
> "Better the Hammer than the nail..."
>
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