[Ravensfort] Service to ones Lord and Kiing

byzytym byzytym at charter.net
Thu Jul 19 18:11:15 PDT 2007

Baron Brian,

So you are saying that if you make the poor judgment to swear fealty to a 
leader that becomes corrupted it is a damned if you do and damned if you 
don't scenario.  Either you follow someone that has lost his honor and do 
his evil bidding which allows him to drag your soul down with his... or you 
rebuff the evil and you suffer by the hand of the same dishonorable despot 
which may cause undeserved distress or death, but at least when you face 
your fate you do it with unsoiled hands.

Not much of a choice.  I can't help but hope that even in the medieval times 
that most people had enough moral stamina to choose to fall as a martyr 
rather than surrender to doing the unsavory or dishonest.  "For what shall 
it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul ?"

I will have to say again that I am sooooo glad that I was born in the 
twentieth century AC (air conditioning) where bad people can't just kill 
everyone that they don't like.  (unless they are mentally unbalanced)  Time 
and their own bad behavior will usually bring out the truth and cause their 
own down fall.  What else could you expect ?  If you plant seeds of hate, 
you are chocked with weeds and thorns.

It seem ironic that the SCA, which embraces a "Not as it was, but as it 
should have been" slogan, should also embrace the fealty system which was so 
flawed that it failed.  The bottom line is that some "good ol' boys" do bad 
things and then lie about it.  I am a realist and so I understand that these 
"modern middle ages" are more like the Assassins Guild slogan, "Not as it 
should have been, but as it was".  After all we are a research organization 
and so I guess that is as it should be.  Let's just admit it.

Thank you so much for this discussion.  I and I believe other have enjoyed 
it very much.  It is utilizing the Raven's Fort post for a positive learning 
tool.  I think that is how most would like for it to be used.  Good things 
to you and yours.


"what shall it profit a man,
if he shall gain the whole world,
and lose his own soul ?"

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Reuter" <jareuter1066 at sbcglobal.net>
To: <ravensfort at lists.ansteorra.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Ravensfort] Service to ones Lord and Kiing

> --- byzytym <byzytym at charter.net> wrote:
> > *** Has your Lord broken the fealty by his
>> behavior...
> After lots of SNIPPAGE............
> You must look at the time of your concept of fealty.
> The Greeks and Romans........... They killed many
> Innocent women and children so that a culture would
> not continue to prosper. TROJANS, GERMANIC'S,
> Now there is a classical time of honorable war huh.
> How about the Saxons, Vikings and Britons.......
> Raiding and pillaging. The Saxons were Purist and
> would not even consider having a half breed child in
> there blood line. The Vikings killed their share of
> Innocent MONKS and took the children and women back to
> be slaves.........now hows that for right and noble
> thought.
> Now lets see..........NORMANS!
> Born to rule the Britons and Saxons!
> They made laws to be followed and enforced their laws
> with a heavy hand and called them selves superior to
> the local natives. Just as the country was getting
> tame and mostly Anglo Saxon Norman like, the CRUSADES
> happen and a new HOLY war sets in and the CHURCH gets
> the unruly nobles to clean up their act by going on
> CRUSADE and redeem their souls for Christ by killing
> the turban bound, curved sword carrying, goat eye
> eating, finger liking MOORS...........because the
> church said they were wrong for being there.
> The bottom line is this......
> If you were strong enough to lead, weaker minds will
> follow. Greed, lust, hate, were some popular reasons
> for motivating armies in history. The Victorian ideals
> of chivalry and ethical conduct are all too easy to
> speak of but when placed in the actual situation in
> the moment of truth would you be strong enough to say
> no and not follow your brothers and not do what all
> the others are doing. If a legionnaire stopped and
> said no..........he was killed. If a viking said no, I
> do not want to raid this year ......he would be
> outcast and left to fend for him self or even killed
> or in-slaved. The English were no different when they
> used the Burgundians to do their dirty work. When all
> the male boys under the age of two were killed in
> Bethlehem by KING HEROD so that a prophecy would not
> be able to come true.
> Today's acceptable moral conduct is so much different
> than what was considered acceptable a thousand years
> ago. In fact you did have a choice. Do or Die. To
> refuse your lord meant to see your commitment to the
> end........your last defiant act of refusing was your
> life. Now that is noble, To die for a just cause.
> Would your life be better spent finding an easier path
> than being placed in the position of choosing to swear
> fealty and not stand by your lord. It is not easy to
> believe in some thing or some one so much that you
> would follow them to hell and back but it is not as
> easy as black and white. People have their own
> perspective. To have the stomach for war is one way of
> looking at it. To believe in one with blind loyalty to
> follow them to the end is nice but the noble cause is
> rare. History is written by the victor and through
> that written word is what we base our moral standards.
> Romantic warriors we all are when we say our cause is
> just. I am not dodging the question of right or wrong
> and the commitment of it all. Life is not back and
> white. We all must decide what we would or will do. If
> you disagree with some one who you have sworn fealty
> to it is up to you do decide what to do. either way
> you have to be strong to make that call and see the
> road to the end. Are you willing to die for what you
> believe is true. Cowards sneak away, whisper behind
> their leaders back and lack the courage to stand up
> for what they believe. If you support some one you
> better know them well enough to do so and stand beside
> them when the going gets rough or the war gets ugly.
> Today you may have that choice to say no. In the past
> you did not have that choice.
> Your Baron
> Brian du Val
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