<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="3">Yes that would be nice. I am lost myself. The curtsey and flee method most certainly is my choice of communication at this point. I have to constantly remind myself bow to the throne, bow to the throne. No one even gave me a clue that was important to do till Gregor told me. Oh? I felt </font><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">embarrassed</font><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="3">. </font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="3"><br></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size="3">Irial</font></div><div
style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: black; "><br><div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><font size="2" face="Tahoma"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Sher M <runa.herd@earthlink.net><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> HerrDetlef <herrdetlef@gmail.com>; PatriciaSchmidt <iris20@sbcglobal.net><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Cc:</span></b> ravensfort@lists.ansteorra.org<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tue, March 29, 2011 4:00:34 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [Ravensfort] A note of Protocol, please<br></font><br>
<style></style>
<div><font size="4">Which brings me back to my original statement. I only
learned the difference on Sunday afternoon. Quite honestly if a brass hat
of any type is standing in front of me and I do not know them personally I don't
know how to tell the difference via their brass hats. So if I don't know
them I do a short curtsey and flee. We need a visual of the 'hat' for each
'level' with how to address that particular hat. I see people sign
messages as HL XYZ, Lord MNO, etc. I know with your AoA you are declared a
Lord or Lady. I know Mistress ABC means Laurel does it also include
Pelicans?</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div><font size="4">We need a protocol class and brass hat explanation
class.</font></div>
<div><font size="4"></font> </div>
<div>Lady Runa of The Thundering Herd<br>Barony of Raven's Fort<br>Knight
Marshal<br>Deputy Minister of Arts<br>Apprentice to Mistress Shanahan<br>Bronze,
Tidal Thunder<br>Amazon Household</div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#000000 2px solid;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px;">
<div style="FONT:10pt arial;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial;BACKGROUND:#e4e4e4;"><b>From:</b>
<a rel="nofollow" title="herrdetlef@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:herrdetlef@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:herrdetlef@gmail.com">HerrDetlef</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial;"><b>To:</b> <a rel="nofollow" title="iris20@sbcglobal.net" ymailto="mailto:iris20@sbcglobal.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:iris20@sbcglobal.net">PatriciaSchmidt</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial;"><b>Cc:</b> <a rel="nofollow" title="ravensfort@lists.ansteorra.org" ymailto="mailto:ravensfort@lists.ansteorra.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:ravensfort@lists.ansteorra.org">ravensfort@lists.ansteorra.org</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial;"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 29, 2011 2:14
PM</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ravensfort] A note of
Protocol, please</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>In Her Excellency's defense, I'd like to suggest that the "of" was
perhaps simply forgotten. I often forget to write critical words...and I'm an
English teacher! I should know better!</div>
<div> </div>
<div>If Her Excellency was unaware of the Atenveldtian custom of titling a
founding baron "Baron (Name of Barony)," then I dropped the ball. I forgot to
cover this bit of protocol with them before they were invested, and I would
like to apologize deeply for any offense I have caused by this oversight of
mine.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>For what it's worth:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>Since Ansteorra was once part of the Kingdom of Atenveldt, we have kept
the Atenvedtian custom of titling our founding barons and baronesses with
"Baron (Name of Barony)" and "Baroness (Name of Barony)" in
perpetuity. As such, Kief and Alix are still Baron and Baroness Raven's
Fort, even though they are no longer the Baron and Baroness OF Raven's
Fort.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>TECHNICALLY (but not properly, since this is not an established custom in
Ansteorra), subsequent barons and baronesses of Raven's Fort can still use the
name of the barony in their names--somewhat following a custom that I will
describe here in a bit. But since doing that would cause too much
confusion--thanks to another breach of protocol which is widely committed but
never discussed--we have to let this one go.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>In Germany, the head of a baronial household is considered the actual
baron, but his children (and also his younger brothers and unmarried younger
sisters) also use the title "baron" in their names. Let's say that Heinrich is
the Baron von Chemnitz. His name and title are properly Heinrich Freiherr
(German for "baron") von Chemnitz. His son Ulrich is titled "Freiherr Ulrich
von Chemnitz," and his younger brother Dietrich is likewise "Freiherr Dietrich
von Chemnitz." It's just that, for the senior member of the household, the
title "Freiherr" is bound to the family name (which corresponds to the name of
the barony in SCA usage), while for junior members, the title is bound to the
personal name. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>In the United Kingdom, members of the Royal Family are also titled along
a similar pattern. The first example that comes to mind is HRH Princess Mary
Adelaide of Cambridge, whose father was the Duke of Cambridge. Since she was
not a senior member of the house of Cambridge, she used her given names in
tandem with the title "Princess," although her father and then her older
brother--when they were the senior members of the house of Cambridge--were
simply HRH The Duke of Cambridge. (I think that, while her father was still
alive, Mary Adelaide's older brother was titled HRH Prince George of
Cambridge. Their father--as a son of King George III--was HRH Prince Adolphus
of the United Kingdom before he was created HRH The Duke of Cambridge.) A more
current example is HRH The Prince of Wales's sons, who are HRH Prince William
of Wales and HRH Prince Henry of Wales...Prince William of Wales will become
HRH The Duke of Cornwall when his father becomes King, and then HRH The Prince
of Wales if and when his father invests him with that title.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>SO...the listing of barons and baronesses of Raven's Fort would look like
this:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Their Excellencies Baron and Baroness Raven's Fort (Sir Arenvald Kief av
Kiersted and The Honorable Lady Alix Catlin de Curci)</div>
<div>Their Excellencies Baron David of Raven's Fort and Baroness Chrystal of
Raven's Fort</div>
<div>Their Excellencies Baron Niklas of Raven's Fort and Baroness Kezia of
Raven's Fort</div>
<div>Their Excellencies Baron Brian of Raven's Fort and Baroness Fionna of
Raven's Fort</div>
<div>Their Excellencies the Baron and Baroness of Raven's Fort (Lord Pasquale
Pace and Lady Giovanna Lena Caronna)</div>
<div> </div>
<div>David, Chrystal, Niklas, Kezia, Brian, and Fionna can use the title
"Baron/Baroness" with their given names, since they are no longer landed
barons. But you and Pace can only use the title "Baron/Baroness" with the name
of the barony while you are landeds.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>But, like I said, the propriety of referring to a landed baron/ess only
with the name of the barony and not their personal names is lamentably
ignored. So in reality, the formers are not afforded the courtesy of appending
"of Raven's Fort" after their given names, and thus the baronial roll of
Raven's Fort looks like this:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>Their Excellencies Baron and Baroness Raven's Fort (Sir Arenvald Kief av
Kiersted and The Honorable Lady Alix Catlin de Curci)</div>
<div>Their Excellencies Baron David St. David and Baroness Chrystal Arianna
MacRuari</div>
<div>Their Excellencies Baron Niklas Vasilevich and Baroness Kilbarta
Kezia</div>
<div>Their Excellencies Baron Brian du Val and Baroness Fionna ni Cheallaigh
(technically, though, the title "Mistress" outranks "Baroness" in
the case of a court baroness who's also a peer, so she is actually
"Her Excellency Mistress Fionna ni Cheallaigh")</div>
<div>Their Excellencies the Baron and Baroness of Raven's Fort (Lord Pasquale
Pace and Lady Giovanna Lena Caronna)</div>
<div> </div>
<div>During their tenure, all of the above--except for Kief and Alix, who were
Baron and Baroness of Raven's Fort from the moment of their investiture--were
Baron and Baroness of Raven's Fort while they were the landeds.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I apologize for forgetting to cover this with Their Excellencies. The
fault is completely mine, and not theirs.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Detlef</div><br><br><br></div></div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 11:48 PM, PatriciaSchmidt <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:iris20@sbcglobal.net" target="_blank" href="mailto:iris20@sbcglobal.net">iris20@sbcglobal.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PADDING-LEFT:1ex;" class="gmail_quote">A note of protocol please:<br><br>Only a founding Baron or
Baroness have the right to the title: Baron (group<br>name) or Baroness(
group name). They also retain that distinction of tile<br>even after
retiring the Baronial thrones. All successors are styled: Baron<br>OF
(group name) or Baroness OF (group name). If in doubt,
please<br>doublecheck the section in Kingdom law and, I believe, also in
corpora as it<br>relates to titles.<br><br><br>M. Jalali of Salamis,
OL<br>Behold the power of Please...<br><br><br><br>(snipped for
brevity)<br>Message: 7<br><br>From: Gary and Carolyn Pace <<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:bandb.ravensfort@gmail.com" target="_blank" href="mailto:bandb.ravensfort@gmail.com">bandb.ravensfort@gmail.com</a>><br>Date:
Monday, March 28, 2011<br>Subject: Baronial Investiture<br>To: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:ravensfort@lists.ansteorra.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:ravensfort@lists.ansteorra.org">ravensfort@lists.ansteorra.org</a><br><br><br>Greetings
to the good people of Raven's Fort,<br> We want to take this
opportunity to thank everyone who had<br>anything to do with the Baronial
Investiture that took place this<br>weekend.<br> Yours in service with
much love,<br>--<br>Pasquale and Giovanna<br>Baron and Baroness Raven's
Fort<br><br><br><br><br>******************************************<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>Ravensfort
mailing list<br><a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:Ravensfort@lists.ansteorra.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Ravensfort@lists.ansteorra.org">Ravensfort@lists.ansteorra.org</a><br><span><a target="_blank" href="http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ravensfort-ansteorra.org">http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ravensfort-ansteorra.org</a></span><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Hwæt! We
Gardena in
geardagum,<br>þeodcyninga,
þrym gefrunon,<br>hu ða
æþelingas ellen
fremedon.<br>Oft Scyld Scefing
sceaþena þreatum,<br>monegum
mægþum, meodosetla
ofteah,<br>egsode eorlas.
Syððan ærest wearð<br>feasceaft
funden, he þæs frofre
gebad,<br>weox under wolcnum,
weorðmyndum þah,<br>oðþæt him
æghwylc þara
ymbsittendra<br>ofer hronrade
hyran scolde,<br>gomban
gyldan. þæt wæs god
cyning!<br>
<p>
</p><hr>
<p></p>_______________________________________________<br>Ravensfort mailing
list<br>Ravensfort@lists.ansteorra.org<br><span><a target="_blank" href="http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ravensfort-ansteorra.org">http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ravensfort-ansteorra.org</a></span><br></blockquote>
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