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<DIV><FONT size=4>Stargate's event isn't that far off. I offer my shop for
the class. But honestly, I'm a visual learner so I need to see pictures of
the different brass hats to go with the HL, HM, and I do know a Duke or Duchess
is Your Grace (I think) but I have no bloody clue what their hat looks
like. Oh and I know a filet (spelling?) to hold a veil in place is just a
veil holder not a brass hat thingy.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Lady Runa of The Thundering Herd<BR>Barony of Raven's Fort<BR>Knight
Marshal<BR>Deputy Minister of Arts<BR>Apprentice to Mistress Shanahan<BR>Bronze,
Tidal Thunder<BR>Amazon Household</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=iris20@sbcglobal.net
href="mailto:iris20@sbcglobal.net">PatriciaSchmidt</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=runa.herd@earthlink.net
href="mailto:runa.herd@earthlink.net">'Sher M'</A> ; <A
title=herrdetlef@gmail.com href="mailto:herrdetlef@gmail.com">'HerrDetlef'</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A
title=ravensfort@lists.ansteorra.org
href="mailto:ravensfort@lists.ansteorra.org">ravensfort@lists.ansteorra.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 29, 2011 9:34
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Of Classes and things was ( A
note of Protocol, please)</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
will be glad to do both as they seem to go hand in hand.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">M.
Jalali of Salamis, OL<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Sher M
[mailto:runa.herd@earthlink.net] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 29, 2011 4:01
PM<BR><B>To:</B> HerrDetlef; PatriciaSchmidt<BR><B>Cc:</B> <A
href="mailto:ravensfort@lists.ansteorra.org">ravensfort@lists.ansteorra.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [Ravensfort] A note of Protocol, please<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Which brings me back to my
original statement. I only learned the difference on Sunday
afternoon. Quite honestly if a brass hat of any type is standing in
front of me and I do not know them personally I don't know how to tell the
difference via their brass hats. So if I don't know them I do a short
curtsey and flee. We need a visual of the 'hat' for each 'level' with
how to address that particular hat. I see people sign messages as HL
XYZ, Lord MNO, etc. I know with your AoA you are declared a Lord or
Lady. I know Mistress ABC means Laurel does it also include
Pelicans?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">We need a protocol class
and brass hat explanation class.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Lady Runa of The Thundering Herd<BR>Barony of Raven's
Fort<BR>Knight Marshal<BR>Deputy Minister of Arts<BR>Apprentice to Mistress
Shanahan<BR>Bronze, Tidal Thunder<BR>Amazon Household<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">----- Original
Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
title=herrdetlef@gmail.com href="mailto:herrdetlef@gmail.com">HerrDetlef</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
title=iris20@sbcglobal.net
href="mailto:iris20@sbcglobal.net">PatriciaSchmidt</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Cc:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
title=ravensfort@lists.ansteorra.org
href="mailto:ravensfort@lists.ansteorra.org">ravensfort@lists.ansteorra.org</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Tuesday, March
29, 2011 2:14 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Re: [Ravensfort]
A note of Protocol, please<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>In Her Excellency's defense, I'd like to suggest that the
"of" was perhaps simply forgotten. I often forget to write critical
words...and I'm an English teacher! I should know
better!<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>If Her Excellency was unaware of the Atenveldtian custom
of titling a founding baron "Baron (Name of Barony)," then I dropped the
ball. I forgot to cover this bit of protocol with them before they were
invested, and I would like to apologize deeply for any offense I have caused
by this oversight of mine.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>For what it's worth:<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Since Ansteorra was once part of the Kingdom of
Atenveldt, we have kept the Atenvedtian custom of titling our founding
barons and baronesses with "Baron (Name of Barony)" and "Baroness (Name of
Barony)" in perpetuity. As such, Kief and Alix are still Baron and
Baroness Raven's Fort, even though they are no longer the Baron and Baroness
OF Raven's Fort.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>TECHNICALLY (but not properly, since this is not an
established custom in Ansteorra), subsequent barons and baronesses of
Raven's Fort can still use the name of the barony in their names--somewhat
following a custom that I will describe here in a bit. But since doing that
would cause too much confusion--thanks to another breach of protocol which
is widely committed but never discussed--we have to let this one
go.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>In Germany, the head of a baronial household is
considered the actual baron, but his children (and also his younger brothers
and unmarried younger sisters) also use the title "baron" in their names.
Let's say that Heinrich is the Baron von Chemnitz. His name and title are
properly Heinrich Freiherr (German for "baron") von Chemnitz. His son Ulrich
is titled "Freiherr Ulrich von Chemnitz," and his younger brother Dietrich
is likewise "Freiherr Dietrich von Chemnitz." It's just that, for the senior
member of the household, the title "Freiherr" is bound to the family name
(which corresponds to the name of the barony in SCA usage), while for junior
members, the title is bound to the personal name. <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>In the United Kingdom, members of the Royal Family are
also titled along a similar pattern. The first example that comes to mind is
HRH Princess Mary Adelaide of Cambridge, whose father was the Duke of
Cambridge. Since she was not a senior member of the house of Cambridge, she
used her given names in tandem with the title "Princess," although her
father and then her older brother--when they were the senior members of the
house of Cambridge--were simply HRH The Duke of Cambridge. (I think that,
while her father was still alive, Mary Adelaide's older brother was titled
HRH Prince George of Cambridge. Their father--as a son of King George
III--was HRH Prince Adolphus of the United Kingdom before he was created HRH
The Duke of Cambridge.) A more current example is HRH The Prince of Wales's
sons, who are HRH Prince William of Wales and HRH Prince Henry of
Wales...Prince William of Wales will become HRH The Duke of Cornwall when
his father becomes King, and then HRH The Prince of Wales if and when his
father invests him with that title.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>SO...the listing of barons and baronesses of Raven's Fort
would look like this:<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Their Excellencies Baron and Baroness Raven's Fort (Sir
Arenvald Kief av Kiersted and The Honorable Lady Alix Catlin de
Curci)<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Their Excellencies Baron David of Raven's Fort and
Baroness Chrystal of Raven's Fort<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Their Excellencies Baron Niklas of Raven's Fort and
Baroness Kezia of Raven's Fort<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Their Excellencies Baron Brian of Raven's Fort and
Baroness Fionna of Raven's Fort<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Their Excellencies the Baron and Baroness of Raven's Fort
(Lord Pasquale Pace and Lady Giovanna Lena Caronna)<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>David, Chrystal, Niklas, Kezia, Brian, and Fionna can use
the title "Baron/Baroness" with their given names, since they are no longer
landed barons. But you and Pace can only use the title "Baron/Baroness" with
the name of the barony while you are landeds.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>But, like I said, the propriety of referring to a landed
baron/ess only with the name of the barony and not their personal names is
lamentably ignored. So in reality, the formers are not afforded the courtesy
of appending "of Raven's Fort" after their given names, and thus the
baronial roll of Raven's Fort looks like this:<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Their Excellencies Baron and Baroness Raven's Fort (Sir
Arenvald Kief av Kiersted and The Honorable Lady Alix Catlin de
Curci)<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Their Excellencies Baron David St. David and Baroness
Chrystal Arianna MacRuari<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Their Excellencies Baron Niklas Vasilevich and Baroness
Kilbarta Kezia<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Their Excellencies Baron Brian du Val and Baroness Fionna
ni Cheallaigh (technically, though, the title "Mistress" outranks "Baroness"
in the case of a court baroness who's also a peer, so she is
actually "Her Excellency Mistress Fionna ni
Cheallaigh")<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Their Excellencies the Baron and Baroness of Raven's Fort
(Lord Pasquale Pace and Lady Giovanna Lena Caronna)<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>During their tenure, all of the above--except for Kief
and Alix, who were Baron and Baroness of Raven's Fort from the moment of
their investiture--were Baron and Baroness of Raven's Fort while they were
the landeds.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>I apologize for forgetting to cover this with Their
Excellencies. The fault is completely mine, and not
theirs.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Detlef<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"
class=MsoNormal><BR><BR><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 11:48 PM, PatriciaSchmidt <<A
href="mailto:iris20@sbcglobal.net">iris20@sbcglobal.net</A>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>A note of protocol please:<BR><BR>Only a founding Baron
or Baroness have the right to the title: Baron (group<BR>name) or Baroness(
group name). They also retain that distinction of tile<BR>even after
retiring the Baronial thrones. All successors are styled: Baron<BR>OF
(group name) or Baroness OF (group name). If in doubt,
please<BR>doublecheck the section in Kingdom law and, I believe, also in
corpora as it<BR>relates to titles.<BR><BR><BR>M. Jalali of Salamis,
OL<BR>Behold the power of Please...<BR><BR><BR><BR>(snipped for
brevity)<BR>Message: 7<BR><BR>From: Gary and Carolyn Pace <<A
href="mailto:bandb.ravensfort@gmail.com">bandb.ravensfort@gmail.com</A>><BR>Date:
Monday, March 28, 2011<BR>Subject: Baronial Investiture<BR>To: <A
href="mailto:ravensfort@lists.ansteorra.org">ravensfort@lists.ansteorra.org</A><BR><BR><BR>Greetings
to the good people of Raven's Fort,<BR> We want to take this
opportunity to thank everyone who had<BR>anything to do with the Baronial
Investiture that took place this<BR>weekend.<BR> Yours in service with
much love,<BR>--<BR>Pasquale and Giovanna<BR>Baron and Baroness Raven's
Fort<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>******************************************<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Ravensfort
mailing list<BR><A
href="mailto:Ravensfort@lists.ansteorra.org">Ravensfort@lists.ansteorra.org</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ravensfort-ansteorra.org"
target=_blank>http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ravensfort-ansteorra.org</A><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR><BR clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Hwæt! We
Gardena in
geardagum,<BR>þeodcyninga,
þrym gefrunon,<BR>hu ða
æþelingas ellen
fremedon.<BR>Oft Scyld
Scefing sceaþena
þreatum,<BR>monegum mægþum,
meodosetla ofteah,<BR>egsode
eorlas. Syððan ærest
wearð<BR>feasceaft funden,
he þæs frofre gebad,<BR>weox under
wolcnum, weorðmyndum
þah,<BR>oðþæt him æghwylc
þara ymbsittendra<BR>ofer
hronrade hyran
scolde,<BR>gomban gyldan.
þæt wæs god cyning!<o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center>
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</DIV>
<P
class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<BR>Ravensfort
mailing
list<BR>Ravensfort@lists.ansteorra.org<BR>http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ravensfort-ansteorra.org<o:p></o:p></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>