SC - Greetings

[ErrickII@aol.com]

Hi, Katerine here.  Sincgiefu writes:

>No mention was made in the postings of 6 Aug. by Terry Nutter and
>Adamantius, of a time limit of 13th to 15th c. - that only came up after my
>reply of 8 Aug.  In regards to my citing Parkinson's 1629 work, some of us
>do extend this game to 1650 - making his work a valuable primary resource.
>Gerard's Herball was written in 1597, and relies heavily on earlier works,
>esp. Dr. Priest's translation of Dodoens' herbal of 1583, and the works of
>ancient Authorities, such as Dioscorides who said "that Damaske Prunes
>dried do =86tay the belly..."

I'm sorry for the confusion.  I did not mean that Gerard is irrelevant;
what I meant, was only that I would hesitate to take his description of
how plums were then used as relevant to anything except the very end of 
period, since this sort of thing changed radically in the 16th C.

>I do agree that fresh plums were eaten raw.   They were also eaten cooked,
>as is clearly demonstrated by the previously cited recipes for bullaces,
>etc.  I also agree that the name "prune" was sometimes applied to plums.
>What I disagree with is Terry Nutter's statement:  "In English recipes,
>there's no indication that
>prunes are used dried, and expert opinion is primarily to the contrary."
>
>The recipes for Lombardy Custard in Harleian MS. 279, c. 1430, - Dyuerse
>Bake Metis
>xvij. Crustade lumbard, and Harleian MS. 4016 #27 Custard lumbarde, if you
>follow the steps as listed, are drying the fruit in the oven before adding
>the custard to the pieshell - "...And Dates, cutte in ij. or iij. and
>prunes, and put hem in faire coffyns of paast; And then put [th]e coffyn in
>an oven, And lete hem bake till thei be hard, And then drawe hem oute, and
>putte the licoure into [th]e Coffyns..."

But there is no indication that the plums are dried *before you start*.
That is, are you to take dried or fresh plums before putting them in the
pieshell?  This recipe does not indicate which.

>Harleian MS. 4016 #33, Grete pyes, calls for prunes (in combination with
>other dried fruits) to provide an interesting black color contrast to the
>hard yellow egg yolks.

I agree that it is plausible that this recipe is calling for dried plums,
but that they are dried is a plausible interpretation (as is the conjecture
that they are providing color contrast; which they would in any case), not
a direct indication in the recipe.  Certainly if all that were intended
were an optical effect, you wouldn't need several sorts of fruit.  At
least part of the intent has to do with flavor.

>This Lenten Tart from Ancient Cookery also calls for prunes.  If, as this
>says, it is a dish for Lent, and plums don't ripen until late summer, the
>plums must have been preserved for 6 months or more.*
 { recipe snipped }
>	*In Stocking Up (Rodale Press, 1973), the method of storing fruits
>& vegetables underground is described in depth.  They say "many major
>fruits do not store well for extended periods of time." They go on to list
>several types of fruits and their storage lengths, temps., & humidity
>levels, which is abbreviated mercilessly here:

But as you point out, they don't list plums; and in any case, plums were
stored in straw, not simply in a cool cellar.  I agree, though, that this
recipe provides the best evidence thus far; and as I said in my previous
post, it is plausible that plums were sometimes dried.  What I don't 
consider plausible is the view that "prune" cannonically meant "dried
plum", i.e., that all recipes calling for plums were indifferently
usable with dried, which was what Adamantius seemed to be suggesting.
The best evidence I have seen is that they were used fresh when
available, and that medievals were *far* better at keeping fresh fruit
usable than we are, or begin to imagine others could have been.

>	There are instructions, in Apicius and elsewhere, for preserving
>plums (and other fruits) in honey. Grapes are preserved by immersion in
>water which has been boiled.  Chiquart, Du Fait de Cuisine, 1420, lists 8
>baskets of candied prunes on his provisions list.

Of course; and I never denied that plums, like other fruits, were preserved
in honey.  It seems overwhelmingly likely, though, that the plums thus 
preserved were not dried first.

The question I was trying to address was whether, in 13th to 15th C
recipes, on seeing "prune", one should automatically assume what we
today call prunes, and not fresh plums.  The best evidence I've seen is
that the presumption goes the other way -- although I agree that in some
recipes, and most notably in pies, dried plums probably are intended.
But in recipes like Bolas, the intent is almost certainly fresh.

>Additional English sources for the phrase "dried prunes":
>
>Thomas COGAN, The Haven of Health, 1584 "The Damasin Plummes are woont to
>be dried and preserved as figges, and are called in English, Prunes."
>
>Karen Hess (Martha Washington's Booke of Cookery, recipes c.1550-1625, pp.
>98-99) cites O.E.D. - "c. 1400 Drie prunis of damascenes", in a note for 
>a recipe calling for "dammask pruens stoned".

This citation actually supports the hypothesis that the intention is *fresh*.
The meaning under which it is cited is "the fruit of the plum tree", under
a specialization meaning specifically the damask.  The *second* substantive
meaning of "plum" is given as "dried fruit"; this occurs under the *first*.
which means simply the fruit.  That the word "dry" is used to modify it
suggests (and the OED seems to concur) that otherwise, it would mean fresh.

In any case, I've never denied the possibility that plums were sometimes
dried; only that, in medieval English recipes, "prune" automatically
means a dried fruit.  The best evidence I have seen -- and this remains true
- -- is that the default is fresh.

>O.E.D. -"1626 BACON Sylva 319 In Drying of Peares, and Prunes, in the Ouen,
>and Remouing of them often as they begin to Sweat."

Once again: I never questioned 16th and 17th C habits, or for that matter,
that plums could have been dried earlier.  The question was whether any
mention of prunes in medieval English manuscripts *automatically* means dried
plums.  Since Adamantius was talking about specific recipes, which were
medieval (as opposed to renaissance), I answered in that context.  I didn't
mean that as any comment in any direction about renaissance habits, 
concerning which I don't know enough to comment with any authority.  I'm
sorry if I did not make that clear.

>Non-English sources:
>
>Epulario, English translation of 1598 (Falconwood ed., p. 6) has a recipe
>for a tart which calls for "dry Pruines or Cherries".
>
>O.E.D. - "c. 1400 Lanfranc's Cirurg. 74 Drie prunis of damascenes"
>
>Platina's De Honesta Voluptate, 1475 (Falconwood ed., p. 129), has a recipe
>for Sauce from Dried Plums which begins "Pitted plums, softened in dark
>wine..."

Interesting; the specification of "dry" suggests that even in Italian
use, plums are not assumed to be already dried (and there does not seem to
be a separate term in culinary Latin, parallel to "raisin", for specifying 
the dried as opposed to fresh fruit).

Ah well.

Cheers,

- -- Katerine/Terry

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