SC - Upper class eats

[Terry Nutter]

Hi, Katerine here.  Lord Ras responds to me:

><< I would be interested if you could provide a list of such books from
>England
> that *were*.  To the best of my knowlege, we don't know for whom a single
> extant collection was produced.  There is a claim in the introduction of one
> concerning *by* whom it was produced; but that claim is held in substantial
> doubt in the professional community.  In any case, it is relatively certain
> that no extant copy of FoC was produced for a royal kitchen.
>
>Other than the technicality that I used the word "noble" and not "royal" in
>my original post, I have NO knowledge of English period cookery. However,
> "the Baghdad Cookery Book" and Le Manegier almost certainly were produced
>for noble households. The Baghdad Cookery Book makes numerous references to
>perparing certain dishes for the Calliph, etc. And Le Manegier describes it's
>purpose quite plainly. 

The Menagier is one of the few collections where we have specific insight
into the class level of its author.  It was written by a wealthy bourgeois
for a second young wife.  He wasn't even what one would call gentle; just
socially aspiring.

> <<On the other hand, we *do* know that collections from very different parts
> of England duplicate recipes in each other.  We also know that when the
> printing industry geared up, one of the things it produced was cookbooks,
> and many of them (by the 16th C) clearly for a mass market that was by no
> means noble.
>
>You may be correct here. My knowledge of "late" period is not strong. It
>appears as if  we are talking of two different worlds. My area of interest
>and my observations and opinions are mainly based on the "feudal" Middle Ages
>and dwindles off to nill about mid-Renaissance. Since there were Nobles and
>serfs in the time I am interested in, I would have little or no concern for a
>wealthy class outside of those main categories. My views on Medieval cookery
>certainly fall within Feudal times 100%.

The duplication of recipes is well established by the 1300s; and we have no
extant sources from England that we can reliably date before the early 
1200s.  Platina was set in print in the last quarter of the 15th C.  What
constitutes "feudal" times depends on location as well as date, and is to
some degree a matter of dispute even among professional historians.  But
much of the English corpus dates from times that are clearly pre-renaissance,
and shows clear evidence of sharing of manuscripts.

>starting point and/or areas of interest that cause us to respond to any given
>post. Such is our case, you're extremely interesting posts are appear to be
>based on late period. Mine on pre-Renaissance which is what makes this list
>so stimulating.

Nope.  My interests end pretty precisely with the 15th C.  I mentioned the
mass market, because it is unlikely that a market suddenly sprang into
existence in such a way that early printers decided that cookbooks were a
good bet.  But the earliest extant northern european manuscript, from the
early 13th century, survives in four manuscripts: two in Danish, one in
Icelandic, and one in Low German.  (The original text, which has not 
survived, is believed to have been in Middle Low German.) The evidence 
of circulation goes back as far as evidence of the existence of collections 
does.

Cheers,

- -- Katerine/Terry