[Fwd: SC - Re: pasties]

[david friedman]

>A Reply from Lady Lyddy about the pasties.

>The pasty that we prefer today and which the Cornish have decided is
>their very own, is nothing like what would be found in period in
>Cornwall.  But it would resemble it in looks.

But earlier you wrote:

>> The "traditional" Cornish Pasty of steak, suit, Swedes, onion and potato
>> is late period

Did you mean, not that that pasty was late period, but that something
shaped like that was late period? Or are you using "late period"to mean
"out of period?" Or do you mean that it was late period, but not in
Cornwall?

Off hand, I cannot think of any period English recipe for dough wrapped
around a filling that has enough information about size and shape to let us
tell just what it would look like--unless you count cuskynoles, which
wouldn't look like a Cornish pasty. What sources were you deriving your
statement about looks from? And I do not know any period recipe at all,
Cornish or otherwise, that corresponds to the traditional Cornish pasty,
including contents.

>And it would taste much better.

The modern would taste better? Which period pasty recipes are you comparing
it to? I don't, in general, find that modern food tastes much better than
medieval food--it depends on the recipe and the cook.

>  The references to period pasties that I have are the same as those
>that have been eaten in Cornwall for centuries.

I am afraid I am still confused about exactly what you are saying.

Are the pasties "that have been ... for centuries" the modern incarnation
of the Cornish pasty, in which case this statement seems to contradict the
one you started with? Or does "the same" mean "look like?" Or is your point
that there are period recipes for pasties that are the same as traditional
Cornish pasties, potatoes and all, but they aren't from Cornwall? If so,
what recipes are they? I have quite a lot of the available period sources,
and I expect what I don't have someone else on this list does.

>   Of the receipes that I have, they can be fried, baked or boiled. But
>they are all shaped the same as the pasty we know in Cornwall. The
>Cornish cooked on the same iron plate with the domed lid that the Irish
>used as late as the 17th century so we know they baked them.

Interesting.  How early do we know the Cornish, or other people for that
matter, cooked on an iron plate with a domed lid and how do we know it?

By "the recipes that I have" do you mean the modern recipes or the period
recipes? There are certainly both fried and baked period recipes for things
wrapped in dough. But how do you know how they are shaped?

>Look at these books... Pleyn Delit the Second Edition and The Medieval
>CookBook by Maggie Black.

My _Pleyn Delit_ says it is revised but does not seem to say second
edition; the one pasty it has is a whole chicken covered with dough, hence
not at all similar to a Cornish pasty. I don't think I have Maggie Black.

I do, however, have lots of primary sources, including _Two Fifteenth
Century_ and _Curye on Englysche_, and haven't seen anything in them to
support either the statement that period pasties are the same that have
been eaten in Cornwall for centuries or that period pasties would look like
modern Cornish pasties. It is certainly possible that they would--but most
period recipes aren't that specific about size and shape. It sounds as
though what we need is not a period recipe for a pasty but a period picture
of one--do you know of any? I don't. Lots of pretzels ...  .

>Also, Chaucer's The Cook's Tale.

Which refers to a pasty, but where does it say anything implying it is at
all similar, in looks or contents, to a modern Cornish pasty?

I think we can all agree that there were things called pasties in period
that  consisted of some sort of filling wrapped in dough and baked. I'm not
sure if the fried ones were called pasties, but there are recipes for
similar things fried.

But I thought you were stating something more than that--either that what
we now call Cornish pasties were late period (my, possibly mistaken,
understanding of your previous post), although not necessarily in Cornwall,
or that what we now call Cornish pasties look like period pasties. So far
as I can tell you have not yet offered any evidence for either statement,
with the possible exception of the business about an iron plate with the
domed lid, which sounds interesting but (so far) a bit vague.

All of this started with my asking someone her reasons for thinking that
the traditional Cornish pasty was period.  Am I correct in concluding that
your answer is that there is no reason to believe the traditional Cornish
pasty--shape and ingredients together--is period, although there are period
things called pasties?

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/


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