SC - Pea soup sugar peas question

[LrdRas at aol.com]

Sweet Lady,

In a message dated 2/7/99 4:05:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, allilyn at juno.com
writes:

<< Pontormo, Jacopo. _Diario_, the diary of the painter, quotes him as
 saying that he had fresh, young peas for dinner. >>

Out of the pod? In the pod? I see no justification for assuming he meant out
of the pod in this quote. I am aware that the idea of eating fresh shelled
peas was introduced to France by an Italian church officual through the French
court. Here we have no disagreement. 

What is interesting is that this quote apperently shows us that at the very
least 'young peas' in whatever form they happened to be were being eaten
outside the noble class. For those researching late Italian peasant or non-
noblemen's food this is an exciting bit of information.

<< ...<snip>...this is late period, which I know you think is 'scribal error',
Ras, 

No, I think that the study of early modern cookery is a field of it's own. I
do feel that it is  (or rather should be) beyond the scope of serious medieval
recreation other than a base for comparison. The forms, spicing, service,
ingrdients and presentation of this cuisine is entirely different from that
which preceded it. I would encourage a cut-off date for 'period' cookery to be
no later than 1450 C.E. much along the lines of SCA heraldry which does not
allow the use of late period material or methods in the construction of
devices.

<<but within our total period people did begin to eat green peas that were not
 dried or mush. >>

I agree. There is some evidence that fresh shelled green peas of the petite
pois variety may have been eaten in certain sections of Italy in the early
stages of modern cookery. We have no argument here. However, I do not agree
that they were used outside of Italy within even SCAdianly excepted time
limits. Their introduction into France is documented as 1681 C.E. and then
only a handful of French royals ate them as a novel treat on a single
occasion. The following introduction into the general popular diet could not
have been achieved until later than that.  My math may be a little off but
this appears to be well outside the time frame of the SCA.

<< These can work for a late feast, Italian in theme,>>

Correct. But to use this as a spring board for using them in other cuisines in
late period is, IMO, an error. 

<< French, according to the quotes people put up earlier, >>

My interpretation of that data does not conclude with the same observations
you have arrived at. The French recipes work very well without the use of
fresh shelled green peas and , IMO, there is no justification for doing so
before 1681 C.E. in France and certainly none within period in places such as
England. 

<<and possibly other cultures as well.>>

On what basis do you make the above statement? Every known authority has
clearly indicated the use of dried peas (out of season) and podded peas (in
season) throughout the middle ages. The only possible exception to this is the
one you indicated referring to Italian cuisine SFAIK. 
 
<< Regards,
 
 Allison >>

Yours in Service to the Dream,

al-Sayyid Ras
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