SC - OT - OOP - All members well and accounted for? (To

[upsxdls@Okstate.edu]

Hullo, the list(s)!

Sorry about cross-posting, but the alignment of the planets, or some
such, made conditions such that it might be forgiven just this once:
we've been talking about bean stews recently on both lists. 

Eden Rain wrote:
 
> David was wonderful enough to invite me for Cassoulet last night & we were
> talking about what the origins of the dish might be.  It reminds me very
> much in concept of the spanish Olla Podridos and I cant think of anything
> else as close within SCA period right now.

Well, in its usual stuffy way, the Larousse Gastronomique hasn't been
especially helpful. Normally they know what they're talking about in
matters pertaining directly to French food, but since they also
generally refuse to even acknowledge the existence of sources that
aren't French, they're somewhat hampered. What they do say is that the
cassoulet of Castelnaudary, in the Languedoc, is believed to be the
oldest known style, but go on to say it did not reach its current form
until the 19th century, when haricot beans were imported to France from
Spain. They further go on to say that prior to this, Lima beans were
used. After that they go on to speak some _real_ nonsense, ignoring the
likelihood that the dish actually predates the use of any of its New
World ingredients. Academically speaking they want to have their
cassoulet and eat it too, downplaying the role of New World ingredients
and possible precursors to them, and yet claiming the dish to be quite "ancient".

> Does anyone have any hard data
> of where they actually came from or documentation of other similar dishes
> pre the introduction of the white bean from the Americas?  None of the books
> I've just skimmed had any useful data just lots of conjecture that they
> existed pre american beans with the use of old world beans, but no data to
> back that up of course.

The quick answer? No! What I can tell you is that it's been said that
cholent, the traditional Jewish long-cooked bean/meat stew, is mentioned
in the Talmud, placing it at well within period, even earlier by many
people's standards. Reading the documentation when it was posted by Lady
Sindara, to the sca-cooks' list, I recall getting the impression that
the documentation more or less anchors a somewhat different dish under
another name, which might or might not really have all that much to do
with cholent. This is, however, an impression that could easily change
upon a second look at the information, and I apologize if I have
misrepresented any of the information provided. I have only my memory of
it to work with here. Perhaps someone on the cooks' list has it sitting
on their hard drive and would like to repost or forward it?

Now, in the mean time, I have an article here by the late Rudolf Grewe,
who had his "Hispano-Arabic Cuisine in the Twelfth Century" published in
_Du manuscrit a la table_, ed. Carole Lambert, University of Montreal
Press, Montreal, Canada, 1992. The article deals largely with a
manuscript source Grewe was in the process of translating, which seemed
to show a very clearly Spanish influence on the Islamic recipes therein,
making it rather different from many other Arabic manuscripts, which,
Grewe claimed, were largely interchangable despite their geographical
origins. (There is much use of olive oil and butter, instead of tail fat
and sesame oil, for example.) Grewe suggests that this book contains
hints about pre-Islamic Spanish eating habits. Here's what he says about
a chick-pea stew:

"The sinhaji dish. 	
	For this, all kinds of meat -- beef, mutton, chicken, partridges, etc.
- -- along with chick peas and whatever vegetables are available in the
season, are boiled in a very large pot. Sausages and meatballs are
considered indispensable ingredients. This dish is a clear example, and
probably the first documented one, of the olla podrida,  Spain's
national dish in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. 
	In our text, this dish bears the name of one of the most famous Berber
tribes, the Sinhaja, and was probably named in its honor."

The dish also seems to bear a pretty close resemblance to some of the
tajines traditionally eaten with coucous in North Africa, and, based on
what I've read by Edda Servi Machlin, also by some Italian Jews.

The one area in which these dishes seem to be different from cassoulet
is the lack of a preserved meat element, unless you count sausages,
which would depend on the type used. I'm pretty sure at least some type
of salt (and, more rarely, smoked) meat is considered essential for a
true cassoulet, even if only a bit of petit sale, or salt pork, for flavor.

Okay, so this doesn't answer your question, but I thought you'd be
interested. ;  )    

> _____________________________________________
> Eden Rain
> raghead at liripipe.com - it's a joke, don't ask...


Adamantius
- -- 
Phil & Susan Troy

troy at asan.com
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