SC - Grapes VERY LONG for the gentle who missed the thread
Philip & Susan Troy
troy at asan.com
Mon Nov 15 06:47:56 PST 1999
In a message dated 11/14/99 11:17:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,
kyliewalker at hotmail.com writes:
<< I'm wondering if I missed the original post on this - it's right in my
area
of interest (note I don't say expertise - the more I learn, the less I know,
etc etc) and I doubt I'd have skipped over anything with the word grape >>
This was my first post on the subject;
<<If I recall correctly, there are some gentles on this list that also
subscribe to the brewers and vinters list. I need some information regarding
the pressing of unripe grapes and was hoping one of those gentles would post
these questions to the other list. I have done several searches on the net,
but I'm getting non specific info.
These are my questions;
Assuming we are talking about the genus "vitis vinifera" (to my knowledge,
which is scant, this is a sort of "mother of grapes" and can be documented at
least a few thousand years ago, but more importantly, as far back as the
Roman Empire).
1.What properties (taste) would result from pressing these grapes at or about
the time they reach the size of a chick pea (approx. a third of an inch in
diameter)?
2 Can a sweet product be derived from unripe grapes- say those harvested
before mid July (or and I quote- when still covered in the first bloom),
barring any drying of the grape beforehand and on the first press.?
If said product from either of these processes is condensed (as in boiled
down to a third its original volume) would it become sweet or sweeter than
its predecessor?
Any help with these questions would be appreciated and can be posted to me
directly if that is more convenient for the brewers/vinters list.>>
Then Master A responded;
< 2 Can a sweet product be derived from unripe grapes- say those harvested
> before mid July (or and I quote- when still covered in the first bloom),
> barring any drying of the grape beforehand and on the first press.?
Well, the trouble is that any sugar there is (and there won't be that
much) would tend to require some kind of concentration, either by drying
or by cooking, normally, and the problem with that is that you'd be
concentrating other chemicals as well as the sugar. The ratio, then, of
sugar to acids and astringents, would be unlikely to change. It'd still
make you pucker a bit, to say the least.
>
> If said product from either of these processes is condensed (as in boiled
> down to a third its original volume) would it become sweet or sweeter than
> its predecessor?
No change, AFAIK. See above.>>
Lord Ras added;
<<Unripe grapes were harvested and pressed in the middle ages. The resulting
fermented product is called 'verjuice' and is a much sought after product by
modern recreational cooks. Concentrating the juice would result in a cooked
taste that would neither be sweet nor retain the refreshing properties of the
unrefined sourness.>>
And finally Pu..I mean Wulfrith stated;
<<Unless I am mistaken here, you're talking about making verjuice.>>
To which I replied;
<< I expect you and the author of whatever has the reference are
talking about different varieties of grape..>>
I am keeping this last comment in mind, but I believe the type of grape used
was possibly vitis vinifera although there were about 50 or so types of
grapes cultivated in Imperial Rome. Actually, what I am referring to are
grapes that are used to make must according to Anthimus, Dioscorides and
Pliny. I have been researching my earlier thread of the connection of Apician
(modified to include Roman) recipes and cooking to later French cooking. In
particular - Taillevent. Note the similarity to verjuis? I don't think I have
to go on about the importance of verjuis in early French cooking nor for
that matter the importance must plays in Roman cooking. I cannot
unquestionably say that the Roman "must" is one and the same as verjuis, but
this information makes the connection more convincing . It also brings into
question our interpretation of caroenum, defrutum and sapa (three reductions
of must used extensively in Roman cooking) which ie Flowers and Rosenbaum
equate with a sweet liquid-made from tinned grape juice in their estimation.
Every modern writer I have read on Roman cooking has used the same
interpretation of a sweet juice including Giacosa, Grainger and last and in
my opinion least, Vehling.
Anthimus actually says in the very last line of his letter to Theuduric in
the 6th C;
uua passa similiter ipso genere de uuis dulcibus et albis. unfacium de uua
cruda fit.
translated by Mark Grant in his edition of the text as;
Raisins from sweet white grapes have similar properties. Must is made from
unripe grapes.
I have also read a second source of English translation, written by a woman
(can't remember her name at the moment). In it she interprets "cruda" as raw.
I went to 3 online dictionaries and found that crudus can mean bleeding/ raw/
uncooked/ unripe/ green/ fresh/ immature/ untimely/ undigested/ harsh. In the
context of the sentence, raw, just doesn't seem to fit. The sentence and
preceeding sentence are not indicating any cooking methods or the need to
cook or not. Using the word as unripe would fit when accompanied by the
comments that Mark Grant adds from the Corpus of Latin Glosses that the best
must was made from grapes picked when no more that the size of chick peas and
Pliny says that these early grapes were pressed to produce a dry red and
rather bitter juice.
It gives one reason to reconsider the sticky sweet grape juice we use when
cooking Roman. I'll be doing some reworking of recipes and comparing the
results. Of course, there may be more to this thread than I've gathered so
I'm not pullin' out my soap box.... yet.:)
And finally I added in response to Lord Ras;
<<Again, Yes!!!!!,:)
I apologize for being not being forthright in my opening post. I had to ask
the questions I've been asking myself for a week. Thanks for reasurring me
that I'm not off my rocker>>.
I had found the new information and was trepidatious about making the leap
from must to verjuice, however, when I posted the original questions I was
putting it out there for others interpretations. Of course there will be more
to add to this discussion and I'm looking for detailed information on the
etymology of grapes, in particular vitis vinifera, due to the fact that it
can be traced back to the early Roman period. If anyone is aware of other
ancient varieties of wine grapes, I'd be thrilled to know more about them. In
addition I have been looking for documentable information about the earliest
viticulture in France. I understand that grapes were found all over the world
(even north america), but cultivating them would be different and even more
questionable was when did the French beging to cultivate them and what
influence did the Roman conquest have on that. I have found archaeological
evidence that the Roman's brought cultivation of the vine as well as olive
trees to some Arabic areas (note I say cultivation) and that this had a
significant effect on the type of settlement (semi-nomadic to permanent) but
I'm looking for more details in the area of Gaul. I guess I need to post this
to the Apicius list as well, maybe there are others with that kind of early
info.
Thank you to everyone who is contributing to this research.It is a passion of
mine and I wish to do the topic justice.
Sincerely, Hauviette
If you've got a literary reference, say, to sweet grapes at about that
size, I expect you and the author of whatever has the reference are
talking about different varieties of grape...
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