SC - Venetian Supremacy

[Richard Kappler II]

>I still feel that this explanation is far from accurate from the
perspective
>that you present it in. Given they may have controlled the selling wares in
>the Northern barbaric regions but the bottom line is that without the
Middle
>eastern importers and their interaction with the traders from said barbaric
>areas, those barbarians would have been flavoring their foods with sage,
>thyme and hyssop. Cinnamon, grains, pepper and nutmeg would not have been
>known. Written records show this NOT to be the case. Indeed, period cookery
>manuals from the North show these items is common use among the nobility
and,
>I still contend, were in common use because of the will of Allah. :-)
>
>Ras


Here you appear to be confusing our off list discussion of the impact of
Islam on the Northern Germanic provinces, Scandinavia and their surrounds
with the statement to which I responded in my "Venetian Supremacy" post.
You made the statement that Venice was the commercial center of the known
world, to which I responded, not so, the Hanseatic League controlled much of
northern Europe.  You have also completely disregarded the premise of the
original statement, re Venice, and introduced the Arabs into this
discussion, I do not see the pertinence of this, other than to identify the
focus which you apply to your research.  Your own statement "they may have
controlled the selling wares" equally applies to the Venetians, though not
for the known world.  In an attempt to focus this particular discussion and
not mire it with the other we are currently having and, preferring to rely
on research as opposed to common misconception and surmise, this 'barbarian'
as you so indelicately labeled my personna and those of like ilk would still
beg to differ with you.

Your original premise:   "I conjecture that this is directly attributable to
Venice being the
commercial center of the known world at that time."

My response:  Venice was a major commercial center of the Mediterranean
world during the era of which we spoke, not 'the' commercial center of the
known world.

Venice was indeed an important commercial center.  Most all goods that were
traded in the Med passed through Venetian warehouses.  Did Venice control
trade in the North?  Not even remotely.  Nor did they control the flow of
goods from the areas you presume were monopolized by the Venetians and the
Arabs.  There were several more Northern overland trading routes.  Notice I
have not said that they compared in quantity or frequency of goods shipped,
but they did indeed exist.  Furthermore, any trade by the Venetians into the
north of Europe, at least by sea, was indeed with and controlled by the
Hanse.  Bruges was a principle Hanseatic city and in fact for quite a while
the seat of the Kontor, the loosely defined governing body of the Hanseatic
League.  When the Venetians and Genoese wanted to trade with us poor
barbarians, where did they go?  Bruges.  Bruges had become the central
market of the Western World at this point says Dollinger, but this claim is
as dubious as the one you make.  Was Bruges more important than Venice or
Alexandria?  To the Northern and Western Europeans, yes.  To the known
world, no.  It would be ludicrous to argue that Bruges was superior to
Venice in Mediterranean trade, just as the converse in the north is equally
so.

Deviating from topic slightly to respond to your claim that the spices used
in the North demonstrate the will and influence of Allah, as I have said
earlier, it IS documented that not all spices came through the Arab
peninsula, but rather the bulk of them.  Additionally, a little further
research into the manuscripts that we have available on period German
cooking would show that the spices were not as commonly in use as you
purport.  They were used, yes, but I refer you to the compilation of
Francesco Sirene, Spicer, of our own list.  The uses of the spices you cite
were but a small percentage of the overall spices found in cuisine of this
area.

Beware of sweeping generalities stated as facts my friend.  This sort of
statement, particularly unsupported as it is, seem a far cry from the
usually meticulous, well researched, well though tersely presented gems you
normally share with us.

regards, Puck

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