SC - Sweet Potato Pie
DianaFiona@aol.com
DianaFiona at aol.com
Wed Jul 5 09:11:58 PDT 2000
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Subject: BOUNCE sca-cooks at Ansteorra.ORG: Non-member submission from ["Paul D. Buell" <tbuell2 at home.com>]
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From: "Paul D. Buell" <tbuell2 at home.com>
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Cc: "Gene Anderson" <gene at ucrac1.ucr.edu>
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Subject: Re: So-called Chineses "Grains of Paradise" was Re: [Fwd: SC - Columbus' chilies]
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 09:01:55 -0700
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Elaine, Would you post this to the cooking list.
Franceso:
1. Stuart is ancient and not very reliable and out of date. There are =
far better sources to use.
2. Our identification as to species is based upon the Chung-yao ta =
tz'u-tien, 3 vols, 1979, and other editions, which has a long article on =
sha-ren or su-sha (other names too). This is the most definitive Chinese =
dictionary of herbs and is an excellent guide to the historical sources =
(Chinese) too.
3. If you had read our book rather than attacking it you would know that =
we have chosen, in our popular names for herbs and species, to follow =
the official equivalencies of the Chinese Maritime Cutoms' list of the =
19th century, that reproduced in Shiu-ying Hu in her An Enumeration of =
Chinese Materia Medica (see her introduction) which gives Amomum =
villosum and A. xanthiodes for Sha-jen and the popular name =
Grains-of-paradise. This was official Ch'ing Dynasty nomenclature. It =
was not our choosing. We had to have a standard to achieve consistency =
and this was the one we choose. Note that Hu is an eminent botanist and =
had very good reasons herself for using this list.
4. The terminology is nowhere near as precise as you claim and it was =
quite common for several spices or herbs to occur under the same name. =
Sometimes even plant materials replaced those of animal origin with the =
old names kept. All of which is to say that unless you have a sample of =
a spice or herb that can be analyzed you can never know for sure =
(absolutely) what is called for in a Medieval text. All we know is what =
the Chinese say that Sha-jen was and what it was established as being in =
a reliable, standard list of exports and imports compiled by Air Arthur =
Hart and his colleages. And note that what went under a name in East =
Asia may have been entirely different from what went under the same name =
in Europe. If you had delved more into the history of spices and herbs =
as trade commodities you would not this. There is a huge literature. The =
problem is nearly universal and well-known.
5. As for African species in Mongol China: this is entirely possible. =
China was in close contact with Africa during the period in question. In =
fact we have a huge amount of geographical information about places as =
far afield as north Africa in the Chinese sources of the time including =
in the texts accompanying the so-called Mongol Atlas of China. So, yes, =
we do imply close contacts with Africa during the period we are =
interested in. And that such contacts existed is known fact. The Mongols =
of China were also close allies of the Mongols in Iran and they had even =
closer contacts.
5. Rather than being "academically irresponsible" we are being very =
cautious. Read our book, we explain our approach.
Paul D. Buell
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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Elaine, Would you post this to the cooking =
list.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Franceso:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>1. Stuart is ancient and not very reliable and out =
of date.=20
There are far better sources to use.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>2. Our identification as to species is based upon =
the=20
Chung-yao ta tz'u-tien, 3 vols, 1979, and other editions, which has a =
long=20
article on sha-ren or su-sha (other names too). This is the most =
definitive=20
Chinese dictionary of herbs and is an excellent guide to the historical =
sources=20
(Chinese) too.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>3. If you had read our book rather than attacking it =
you would=20
know that we have chosen, in our popular names for herbs and species, to =
follow=20
the official equivalencies of the Chinese Maritime Cutoms' list of the =
19th=20
century, that reproduced in Shiu-ying Hu in her An Enumeration of =
Chinese=20
Materia Medica (see her introduction) which gives Amomum villosum and A. =
xanthiodes for Sha-jen and the popular name Grains-of-paradise. This was =
official Ch'ing Dynasty nomenclature. It was not our choosing. We had to =
have a=20
standard to achieve consistency and this was the one we choose. Note =
that Hu is=20
an eminent botanist and had very good reasons herself for using this=20
list.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>4. The terminology is nowhere near as precise as you =
claim and=20
it was quite common for several spices or herbs to occur under the same =
name.=20
Sometimes even plant materials replaced those of animal origin with the =
old=20
names kept. All of which is to say that unless you have a sample of a =
spice or=20
herb that can be analyzed you can never know for sure (absolutely) what =
is=20
called for in a Medieval text. All we know is what the Chinese say that =
Sha-jen=20
was and what it was established as being in a reliable, standard list of =
exports=20
and imports compiled by Air Arthur Hart and his colleages. And note that =
what=20
went under a name in East Asia may have been entirely different from =
what went=20
under the same name in Europe. If you had delved more into the history =
of spices=20
and herbs as trade commodities you would not this. There is a huge =
literature.=20
The problem is nearly universal and well-known.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>5. As for African species in Mongol China: this is =
entirely=20
possible. China was in close contact with Africa during the period in =
question.=20
In fact we have a huge amount of geographical information about places =
as far=20
afield as north Africa in the Chinese sources of the time including in =
the texts=20
accompanying the so-called Mongol Atlas of China. So, yes, we do imply =
close=20
contacts with Africa during the period we are interested in. And that =
such=20
contacts existed is known fact. The Mongols of China were also close =
allies of=20
the Mongols in Iran and they had even closer contacts.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>5. Rather than being "academically irresponsible" we =
are being=20
very cautious. Read our book, we explain our approach.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Paul D. Buell</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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